WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
kelrhys
Greenhorne
Posts: 8
Joined: 10 May 2017 16:48

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by kelrhys » 14 Jul 2019 04:57

Getting rid of the unknown people on who list only affects those who are not Obscenely Rich members of the Rich Men's Club, who see names of all members who login, whether they've met them or not. Between the newbie helper pin and RMC members you would have probably 90% or more of the current who list anyway. As Shesara said, the unmet people on who list had nothing whatsoever to do with the discovery of the assassin's identities anyway. Genesis is a small town, and word travels quickly. I don't think this is a bad thing, you just have to understand this and plan around it.

As for making it hard to be able to find victims in "protected" areas due to being able to avoid them...I think there are just as many cases when naughty adventurers purposely go there even when mages or knights are awake. I have certainly heard of several recent cases. In any case, the RMC who list would need to be eliminated as well if this is truly the goal. Also, the practice many have of idling all the time works almost as well as not being on the who list! Is he really awake or not? If you have not been introduced, who knows!!

For stealth purposes, the warlock urchem spell is quite powerful and effective, and surely others like it could be invented if there is truly a need. At the same time, does an assassin's guild really need or want to be completely invisible? How will you attract clients and new members?

Draugor mentioned hating being pestered by newbies. The only reason he is pestered is because he uses his character name on Discord and talks (a lot) there, so he is basically a celebrity to all the newbies who come there for help. Plus he wears a newbie helper pin all the time, so complaining about being pestered by newbies is a little....perplexing. Even without who list, they'd probably still send mail or assume he is awake if he is talking on Discord.

As for eliminating the unmet names for immersion and roleplay purposes (again, assuming we also remove RMC ability) I feel this could easily backfire. While I personally usually have close to half of the who list remembered, I have high int+wis, and yet still there are always a number of unremembered people awake who I have met but did not have room to remember. This is much worse for those who are not casters, or small. These people would just feel...all alone. And probably quit. For me, knowing who all is available to interact with, known or unknown, makes the game more fun. There is a fine line between perfect "game realism" and functional playability.

If you find seeing unknown strangers detracts from your Genesis immersion, <options showunmet off> will fix that!

Finally, with regards to titles being static, this would be so confusing! Also, I personally use title changes as material for roleplay, and others have for me as well. It encourages interaction, to congratulate someone on reaching a new level (or, uh, losing one) or title in their guild, or inquire about their change in occupation.

Just my .02

--Kelrhys

sylphan
Great Adventurer
Posts: 163
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by sylphan » 14 Jul 2019 05:59

You make some good points, Kelrhys.
kelrhys wrote:Finally, with regards to titles being static, this would be so confusing! Also, I personally use title changes as material for roleplay, and others have for me as well. It encourages interaction, to congratulate someone on reaching a new level (or, uh, losing one) or title in their guild, or inquire about their change in occupation.

Just my .02

--Kelrhys
With respect to this one, I differ. I think it's a lot more meaningful to be surprised by and congratulate someone on a new promotion in person - as happened in game between you and I recently - than just checking the who list and sending a whisper or something. I think it's valuable to be able to see a list of names of who's on, but I also think it puts positive pressure on roleplay to have the <who f> list reflect changes only as recently as you've been in the same room with the person.

Greneth
Great Adventurer
Posts: 168
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Greneth » 14 Jul 2019 06:48

kelrhys wrote:Getting rid of the unknown people on who list only affects those who are not Obscenely Rich members of the Rich Men's Club, who see names of all members who login, whether they've met them or not. Between the newbie helper pin and RMC members you would have probably 90% or more of the current who list anyway.
The difference is those are choices, I can choose to be apart of the RMC or Newbie Helpers. The who list isn't a choice, my status is forcefully revealed.

And prior to the who list, a lot of us never introduced to everyone we met. When the who list was implemented everyone kind of just threw their hands up and said what's the point of trying to be anonymous?

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Draugor » 14 Jul 2019 14:19

kelrhys wrote:Getting rid of the unknown people on who list only affects those who are not Obscenely Rich members of the Rich Men's Club, who see names of all members who login, whether they've met them or not. Between the newbie helper pin and RMC members you would have probably 90% or more of the current who list anyway. As Shesara said, the unmet people on who list had nothing whatsoever to do with the discovery of the assassin's identities anyway. Genesis is a small town, and word travels quickly. I don't think this is a bad thing, you just have to understand this and plan around it.

Draugor mentioned hating being pestered by newbies. The only reason he is pestered is because he uses his character name on Discord and talks (a lot) there, so he is basically a celebrity to all the newbies who come there for help. Plus he wears a newbie helper pin all the time, so complaining about being pestered by newbies is a little....perplexing. Even without who list, they'd probably still send mail or assume he is awake if he is talking on Discord.

If you find seeing unknown strangers detracts from your Genesis immersion, <options showunmet off> will fix that!


Just my .02

--Kelrhys

Avoiding RMC is easy. Dont join. Not that hard is it? I even heard it's cheaper. And like I proposed for the wholist, make an option to not be seen. This is again for unmet. The regular wholist and it's updating is a nothing issue, it makes more sense tho. KNowing the name of everyone you've never met? Does not.

Discord is one thing MY CHARACTER another. In game VS out of game, I know alot of newbies today cant comprehend the difference, I'd expect people that are around myth to atleast grasp the basics of that.
And newbies that do this are usually those fresh out from the newbie area that blast it from the unmet list. Hence remove unmet or make showing up on it optional.

And the unmet makes "Oh I know x is a member of Y, better not go to that area and grind"
Or "X is online, X usually grinds there I might aswell not even go try there and accidentally interact"

User avatar
Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Arman » 15 Jul 2019 05:06

I'd actually like to see the 'who' system go the other way. Whether you are introduced or not, the greater your mortal level the more likely you are to be known... I've found it ironic that there can be unknown 'legends' and 'myths'.

Everyone knew who Druss the Legend was, whether they'd met him or not!

I do take some of the points around the importance of anonymity for some guilds. I don't mind it being a taxable feature of certain guild styles... like rangers and rogues. Could add an additional level of distinction to those class types.

User avatar
Dhez
Adept
Posts: 105
Joined: 07 Oct 2015 17:38
Location: Gorlovka

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Dhez » 15 Jul 2019 09:47

Arman wrote:I'd actually like to see the 'who' system go the other way. Whether you are introduced or not, the greater your mortal level the more likely you are to be known... I've found it ironic that there can be unknown 'legends' and 'myths'.

Everyone knew who Druss the Legend was, whether they'd met him or not!

I do take some of the points around the importance of anonymity for some guilds. I don't mind it being a taxable feature of certain guild styles... like rangers and rogues. Could add an additional level of distinction to those class types.
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose, though? Whoever isn't obviously shown is by definition a member of that guild class?

I agree that notorious people should have some renown, but that renown had some prerequisites too: having heard the stories, growing up in a community, reading the books of their deeds, listening to their stories by a campfire. In our context, it seems difficult to understand how someone who has just awoken to the world automatically knows so much of its inhabitants. As for older players, well they may have heard of the mighty Fluffy and his deeds, but those stories were from his time as a mage. How would I know where he is at now? Not to speak of the fact of those stories spread by others having credibility or not.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

User avatar
Drazson
Expert
Posts: 263
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Drazson » 15 Jul 2019 09:59

Having a guild list is comfortable, sure, but it's most likely a target nerf than something to be taxed upon.
e.g. "Let me just log on my *X character in a <list> guild* and check which ones are online. Wish I could do that for all my other enemies".

The thing is that between discord or further private communication there is next to nothing that's a secret (unless it's a bug that makes people OP or something useless that MOST of the guild doesn't even know about cause there's no need(true story)). Your online guildies can probably be found on discord or are with someone who is on discord, you dont need <xlist>. Can't talk about all of them, but rangers being in those classes Arman mentioned can't use their stealth tax offensively (we can't fight our way out of a paperbag with equal mortal levels cause of the skills tax I imagine).

Mechanically speaking, it feels like there is no room for anything but combat in the game. It's made obvious by the layman choices of most people in the close past. Bullshit an EW enough that you do care, do that weird thing with the items, they let you in, get the goodies, done. (I have failed in this due to honesty but not due to vile xD)

Idk.

User avatar
Dakhor
Apprentice
Posts: 32
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 16:21

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Dakhor » 15 Jul 2019 12:17

Arman wrote:I'd actually like to see the 'who' system go the other way. Whether you are introduced or not, the greater your mortal level the more likely you are to be known... I've found it ironic that there can be unknown 'legends' and 'myths'.

Everyone knew who Druss the Legend was, whether they'd met him or not!

I do take some of the points around the importance of anonymity for some guilds. I don't mind it being a taxable feature of certain guild styles... like rangers and rogues. Could add an additional level of distinction to those class types.

I agree with Arman here... It would benefit any new player to feel immersed in our world to be able see certain players titles - lets say leaders of guilds excluding perhaps the obvious such as assassins etc.

Although I personally would love to see a return to the old who list, I do not think its feasible if we want to keep attracting newer players (we need to do more here not less)

/DaC

User avatar
Dhez
Adept
Posts: 105
Joined: 07 Oct 2015 17:38
Location: Gorlovka

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Dhez » 15 Jul 2019 12:47

Dakhor wrote:
Arman wrote:I'd actually like to see the 'who' system go the other way. Whether you are introduced or not, the greater your mortal level the more likely you are to be known... I've found it ironic that there can be unknown 'legends' and 'myths'.

Everyone knew who Druss the Legend was, whether they'd met him or not!

I do take some of the points around the importance of anonymity for some guilds. I don't mind it being a taxable feature of certain guild styles... like rangers and rogues. Could add an additional level of distinction to those class types.

I agree with Arman here... It would benefit any new player to feel immersed in our world to be able see certain players titles - lets say leaders of guilds excluding perhaps the obvious such as assassins etc.

Although I personally would love to see a return to the old who list, I do not think its feasible if we want to keep attracting newer players (we need to do more here not less)

/DaC
Could we find middle ground and say that for the sake of newcomers we make our names visible, but for the sake of immersion and a degree of rp we keep our titles secret until we formally intro? "Who" isn't the issue. It's "who -f"
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: WHO - why too much transparency is bad for Genesis

Post by Draugor » 15 Jul 2019 13:36

Or! OR! People that are newbiehelpers are seen so it aint completely insane? :P
Let's say it's someone in something of a secretive guild, rangers, assassins, kenders, morguls or the like and they are seen and in the open, immersion goes right out the window instantly and where is the excitement of actaully meeting someone if you know everyone? No, revert to the old wholist that wasnt one of the dumbest things ever made :P

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/