Magic Maps

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sylphan
Great Adventurer
Posts: 196
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

New magic map rendering of the Silent Forest

Post by sylphan » 13 Feb 2020 19:02

Greetings. There has been some talk on Discord about the new way in which the magic map renders the Silent Forest in Calia. It used to show most exits clearly / obviously, with an exception near the top of the map, that I think was intentionally cryptic. Then the map changed, so that that part of it was clear and obvious, which didn't bother me and didn't make any difference to me at all, actually. Then, shortly after that, it became something else, that showed only a few exits near the bottom. The rest is I guess supposed to be a forest, with a house (?) in the western part. The result, to my mind, is the worst of both worlds: it is much harder to navigate, and also unattractive. I'd prefer that it go back to the way it was, or just be blank on the magic map.

Drazson
Rising Hero
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Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: New magic map rendering of the Silent Forest

Post by Drazson » 13 Feb 2020 19:45

With respect to whoever went for the artistic change, I agree that it was an unsuccessful attempt.
I believe the 2 worlds can co-exist, exits being clearly output and parts like the house standing atop of the nodes being there as well.

kelrhys
Beginner
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Joined: 10 May 2017 16:48

Magic Maps

Post by kelrhys » 14 Feb 2020 03:55

I have noticed that recent additions or changes to the magic map in areas such as Calia and Sybarus do not show even the obvious exits, and can not really be considered a map at all, but instead more of a compass.

It was my hope that the goal for the web client was to continue to close the gap in functionality between other clients like CMUD and mudlet, but unfortunately magic maps that aren't actually maps (especially for areas like Silent Forest which previously was a map) is a step in the opposite direction. I see this as putting a ceiling on what players can achieve without moving to another client, as the compass system is a major downgrade from a full map. A practical example is I do not feel comfortable leading in hunting grounds that do not have a true map. I love the web client and its ease of use, and the fact that it uses Javascript instead of a custom scripting language that cannot be leveraged elsewhere. Up until now I was willing to deal with the drawbacks, in expectation that as more areas were mapped it would continue to be an improved experience, and am sad that does not appear to be the case.

Just my .02 Thank you to all who contribute their time and talent to Genesis.

Kelrhys

Examples of some of the newer "maps"
calia_silent_forest_new.JPG
calia_silent_forest_new.JPG (22.11 KiB) Viewed 1116 times
calia_water_krougs2.JPG
calia_water_krougs2.JPG (36.78 KiB) Viewed 1116 times
sybarus pony gnome.JPG
sybarus pony gnome.JPG (48.34 KiB) Viewed 1116 times

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Cherek
Site Admin
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Re: Magic Maps

Post by Cherek » 14 Feb 2020 14:44

First of all, a lot of new maps have been added to Calia recently, and ALL the other new maps (except silent forest and water krougs) follow the usual convention of showing the entire area on the map. So, I think it is a little unfair to say that this a step in the wrong direction overall. This is not some move towards a "compass system", and if you explore more of Calia you'll see that all the other new maps are "normal maps".

Of the new maps, I think there are only TWO that are not showing most exits in the standard way. That is the silent forest and the water kroug area. The silent forest map shows your general location in the area rather than an exact location and all exits. This is a system that is used in many places all over the realms in areas with non-obvious exits. One example that immediately comes to mind is the Qualinost forest. The silent forest is also an area with non-obvious exits, so, it makes sense that this area should follow the same convention as other non-obvious exit areas I think.

Personally I think non-obvious exit areas should continue to show your general location rather than _exact_ room exits. They were clearly written that way for a reason, probably to have players look for a semi-hidden path in the room description, or to make the player feel a bit confused about their exact wherabouts. I think the magic map should reflect this. This is a system that has been used a long time in many other non-obvious exit areas without any complaints for many years. Why is this a problem in the silent forest especially? Or do you have issues with all the other non-obvious exit areas in the realms as well?

As for the the water krougs area, it was inpired by a similar dark area in Avenir that has existed for a long time, and the idea I believe is to simulate that your light source only lights up the room you are in. When i tried it, I still found it easy to navigate using the magic map since the area is so small. Now, many other dark places does show the entire area and all exits, so, I am fine with doing that here too if everyone truly dislikes this map. And I suppose if we are going to be consistent, we should show all obvious exits in all dark places. But I do think it's a cool way to simulate darkness, and that the map helps you "feel" that it is dark, and it would be a little sad to replace it with a normal map... :(

Anyway, these things are open for debate and discussion. Does everyone feel like Kelrhys, or what does the rest of you think about non-obvious exit areas, and the "darkness simulation" in the kroug caves and Avenir?

kelrhys
Beginner
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 May 2017 16:48

Re: Magic Maps

Post by kelrhys » 14 Feb 2020 17:09

Hi Cherek,
Thank you for your detailed reply, and in particular the reassurance that it is not planned that all new magic maps will necessarily lack the path detail that is so vital to navigation. It just so happened that I had been to the three locations I showed recently and not seen any maps that I recognized as new that had full details.

Your point about non-obvious exits puzzled me a bit though, as I have seen a variety of ways this is handled. By far my favorite is when the map shows an empty area, or details off-path that hint there might be more to be seen than just the road itself. That makes me start poking around to see if I can reach that wooded area or far-off mountain. An example I just happen to have is the road from Solace to Tantallon, but similar features exist in the Tharkadan mountain area as well. Also, for dark/underground areas, the Theiwar Dwarves area is both functional and atmospheric.

Once again, I appreciate your engagement. It would be interesting to hear what other web client users think, but I am not sure how many of them read the forums.

Kelrhys
theiwar_dwarves.JPG
theiwar_dwarves.JPG (47.57 KiB) Viewed 1074 times
roadToTantallon.JPG
roadToTantallon.JPG (48.54 KiB) Viewed 1074 times

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Cherek
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Re: Magic Maps

Post by Cherek » 14 Feb 2020 17:31

Just a quick post to say that I merged the two topics regarding maps into one, I felt it was better instead of having two separate threads about more or less the same thing.

chevrotain
Wizard
Posts: 3
Joined: 14 Feb 2020 01:29

Re: Magic Maps

Post by chevrotain » 14 Feb 2020 22:51

I guess now is as good a time as any to announce that I finished doing all the maps I know of in Calia (with the exception of one room). Thalassia was huge (do I count 8 maps?!?) and it took a lot of work, the grotto, Eldoral and the castle, the kretan forest, the cliff with the north face, and of course, the water krougs and the silent forest. In addition, there are a few 'secret' areas that I also mapped - can you find them? Better question, can you tell me about any I missed?!?

With regards to the water krougs, I loved exploring that area when I started playing in Genesis because the blank map felt claustrophobic, and I wanted the new map to mimic that feeling. The desire to have "full functionality" is completely understandable, especially for experienced players, but I believe it needs to be balanced with creating an immersive experience.

As for the Silent Forest, the exits are supposed to be hidden-ish. I knew there would be blowback for removing information from the map. The thing I should also have expected is that making little ascii-art trees, cliffs and shrines is hard, and many of you find my work ugly. I am currently looking at ways to change that map. I know all of you herbers want the old map that I fixed back, but it shows more information than the text gives. Given that, what would you like to see? Bonus points for answers phrased as ascii art - I'd be happy to connect that map up.

As a player, I'm mostly done exploring and I think about and relate to the various areas of Genesis by the shapes on the magic map. From the style of the artwork to the shape of the map, there's a feeling that every area gives and it's based in large part on the map after the exploring and reading is done. I made a regular old map for the krougs. I walked around in it, and the claustrophobia was all gone. It was way more work to do the map I did, and I didn't do it off-handedly. I was inspired by what I feel was truly beautiful work in Sy'Barus. It went through 4 iterations before I settled on the current incarnation. It gives a different feeling than the other areas of Genesis. I know it isn't as pretty as the Sy'Barus map, and it doesn't give as much information as a regular old map. It may not even feel claustrophobic to you. I did my best.

The only thing that I ask is a bit personal. In game, I'm friends with some of the loudest critics. There are things that have been said that are pretty hurtful. I don't blame you. It's frustrating when something you love changes in a way that you don't like. I just ask that you try to phrase your criticisms in the form of 'wouldn't it be cool if ...', as in "Wouldn't it be cool if we treated every problem as a chance to make something cool?" I know it may feel like wizards aren't available for that dialog. You see problems which should obviously be fixed first and the wizards instead decide to do something else that you think is horrible - it's baffling.

According to the wizarding rules, I can't fix any of the problems in my in-game haunts until I've proven myself to not be a cheater, and maybe not even then. I understand these rules completely, and I don't want to change them. I just want some understanding about how much there is to fix in Genesis, how little I know about LPC and some understanding that there are many audiences that we're working for. It should be implied here, but I'm a new wizard who's trying to learn and I only speak for myself.

sylphan
Great Adventurer
Posts: 196
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: Magic Maps

Post by sylphan » 14 Feb 2020 23:51

The new magic map work on Thalassia is amazing. Great work!

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Ody
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Location: Vingaard Keep

Re: Magic Maps

Post by Ody » 15 Feb 2020 00:47

Moderator: This post clearly broke the rules of the forum and has been removed.
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I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
I just ghost
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I just ghost

Drazson
Rising Hero
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Re: Magic Maps

Post by Drazson » 15 Feb 2020 02:44

Ody, you sure are being rude beyond recognition, more so to people who do the work for you having a game to play.

I have not dabbled the rest of the areas too much but, regarding the silent forest, hidden exits it is. I'm no good in ASCII art to share some thought and last time I read regarding wizhood it didn't say you have to do an awesome ascii map anyway. Let's be a bit more open about our aliases and triggers so that newer players can set something up once they realize the treasures the forest holds.

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