Autosneak

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Tarlok
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Autosneak

Post by Tarlok » 12 Jul 2020 20:00

I saw this statement in the fact checking thread and it seemed surprising to me on multiple aspects.

"Technically AA is a stealth class (better sneak & hide than RoI), they just don't have autosneak which I've always found odd since this ability is not being taxed as it's just a QoL upgrade."


I've always found autosneak to be much more than a quality of life upgrade. When I played a ranger (admittedly ages ago) autosneak was considerably better than using the sneak command. From many admittedly anecdotal encounters over decades of playing I have noticed autosneak is more effective at preventing you from being noticed, perhaps it offers a better hide, I am unsure about that aspect. I have wondered if (the probably various?) autosneak codes used different checks than plain sneak and hide. Especially because you cant sneak away from combat, but autosneak always worked. It was always easy to escape combat with autosneak, and frustrating on other end when your target just disappeared as they sometimes would. So ya its definately not just a QoL upgrade... perhaps it should be global like block if thats true? Actually that would actually be pretty terrible, lets not actually consider that. ;-)

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Arman
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Arman » 13 Jul 2020 04:51

Cot is working on re-doing the stealth system at the moment.

Having a global auto sneak is something on the 'to do' list.

Tarlok
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Tarlok » 13 Jul 2020 16:40

Thanks for the news. Is there any information available on the plan for the stealth rework?

Currently it seems like equal skill in sneak/hide and awareness gives one around a fair chance of seeing a hide, but a poor chance of detecting a sneak. Additionally there seems to be very limited environmental alterations to sneak and hide such as light level or difficulty of the particular room for stealth. Various actions one takes while hidden are fairly generous in that they do not harm the quality of the stealth, such as speaking, changing equipment, or using containers.

I suppose there could be alot of complex mechanics involved in a clever rework of hide, sneak, and autosneak. It would be great to hear some information about the plans if possible.

Also is there any planned penalty to autosneaking with the recode, otherwise it seems like everyone will always autosneak for the chance it avoids detection, even at AG skill levels.

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Zhar
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Zhar » 13 Jul 2020 21:21

Previously I was the one who wanted to introduce the global autosneak but the code involved there is a bit beyond me as it has a lot to do with low level player internals and I'm not much versed in that.

I think you shouldn't be worried though. Even if autosneak code will be moved to the core abilities available to everyone I'm 99% sure you won't be able to use it with just AG levels, similarly to how you cannot adapt some thief skills as merc to very high levels unless you already have them provided by your layman or how you can't really steal things or pick locks with AG levels outside of questing.

I would also like to see some more variety in autosneaking (thieves being better at sneaking in cities while rangers in the outdoors). I remember there was a mudlib update in the past that added various environments that could be used in the rooms but to actually implement it someone would have to update all the rooms with it (going room by room and specifying what kind of environment it is and there are dozens to choose from) which is a daunting task considering the size of Genesis. Maybe somewhere down the line it will become a reality.
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sylphan
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Re: Autosneak

Post by sylphan » 16 Jul 2020 05:00

Zhar wrote:
13 Jul 2020 21:21
I think you shouldn't be worried though. Even if autosneak code will be moved to the core abilities available to everyone I'm 99% sure you won't be able to use it with just AG levels, similarly to how you cannot adapt some thief skills as merc to very high levels unless you already have them provided by your layman or how you can't really steal things or pick locks with AG levels outside of questing.
So what is the point of making it (autosneak) a "core ability" if it's unusable except in guilds that would obviously provide it anyway?

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Zhar
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Zhar » 16 Jul 2020 13:49

sylphan wrote:
16 Jul 2020 05:00
So what is the point of making it (autosneak) a "core ability" if it's unusable except in guilds that would obviously provide it anyway?
1. You have one central point for balancing autosneak code instead of it being copy-pasted all over the place across different domains and then when it's updated in one guild the change isn't spread to the others (in case a bug was found). Having it in one place would ensure that it's working the same for everyone and any changes made to it are automatically spread to all the guilds that use it.
2. Guilds that have higher than standard sneak & hide skills but don't have access to autosneak currently would get it (Wild Elves, Hobbits, Army of Angmar come to mind) as well as mercs who would decide to invest some adaptation into those skills.

Is that not enough of a reason to do it?

Besides, initially when I was thinking on how to do it I thought that you shouldn't be able to autosneak without at least superior layman skill levels. Not just because then everyone would do it (because why not?) but also because people then would get frustrated by not being able to walk where they want as they'd be constantly assaulted with messages like "It's too hard to sneak/hide here", "You're not skilled enough" or "Sneak all shining like that? Are you kidding?". There would be no end to whining :twisted:
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Thalric
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Thalric » 16 Jul 2020 16:57

If people would not like that spam... I am sure they would stop auto-sneaking. :)

sylphan
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Re: Autosneak

Post by sylphan » 16 Jul 2020 18:27

Zhar wrote:
16 Jul 2020 13:49
1. You have one central point for balancing autosneak code instead of it being copy-pasted all over the place across different domains and then when it's updated in one guild the change isn't spread to the others (in case a bug was found). Having it in one place would ensure that it's working the same for everyone and any changes made to it are automatically spread to all the guilds that use it.
2. Guilds that have higher than standard sneak & hide skills but don't have access to autosneak currently would get it (Wild Elves, Hobbits, Army of Angmar come to mind) as well as mercs who would decide to invest some adaptation into those skills.
1. Sure, so it's simpler for wizards to handle on the code side. I get it.
2. I think autosneak should be a special ability only accessible to a few rogue-type classes. Those classes have a hard enough time as is. Giving them exclusive autosneak seems fair to me. The other guilds (wild elves, etc.) would still get value out of being able to sneak / hide in certain discrete situations. If they wanted to be habitually stealthy, they could join one of the stealth guilds on top of this.

Someone else registered surprise that Angmar has high stealth skills. I second this. If the guild was meant to be an evil version of rangers, it seems like a lot of people who choose to play this guild missed that. Don't people in Angmar tend to be tanks and bashers? Seems like the opposite of stealth to me. But whatever - just registering my impression.

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Zhar
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Zhar » 16 Jul 2020 21:59

I see no reason why Adventuresome Hobbits, who have stealth skills equal to Ranger Pupils shouldn't also be able to autosneak. Even in the comments to original code autosneak is said to be just a QoL feature, not a special ability (that's why it's not taxed).

And yeah, Angmar has confident veteran levels in sneak & hide, as well as a special attack similar to backstab. I think that they could benefit from having autosneak feature without having to join Thieves or Tricksters.
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Tarlok
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Re: Autosneak

Post by Tarlok » 17 Jul 2020 03:40

There seems to be some assumption of status quo which strikes me as odd since Arman indicated Cotillon is reworking the stealth system. Who knows what the future will hold.

Perhaps...
...sneaking and hiding wont be so common as movement will be slower or fatiguing from room to room while sneaking?
...those only partially hidden wont show up as objects in the room, but instead nestled in at the end of the long description of the room?
...more actions of those hidden (such as speaking) will degrade the quality of stealth and make hidden people easier to locate?
...there will be actions one can take to have a better chance at detecting hidden players such as listening or searching?

Who knows what this rework entails, it could be very interesting.

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