Racial Rebalancing News?

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Kjartan
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Kjartan » 05 Feb 2021 06:47

Cherek wrote:
05 Feb 2021 03:49
Why would anyone pick the Estonian team?:)
As cheeky as this might sound, I'm serious: for the challenge. Let's say the Estonian team wins against one of the other teams, they will be celebrated, while if the other team wins, no one will see in it an achievement. While the Estonians don't even have to win at all, any goal would likely be celebrated. And maybe it's not even about the competition - I'm sure the Estonians would be happy about the opportunity of such a match.

But, I'm totally fine with it, that you want to have balance. But I see several possibilities (but will stick to call the race Estonians, because I don't know which race is currently in need of some boost). Give the Estonians a bonus on some weapon, which the others can use as well, but the Estonians have a bonus on it (fits to all races I guess; orcs might have clubs, dwarves definitely axes or hammers, etc…). And to give the Estonians now a special boost (without having to do much programming etc) just introduce extra strong Estonian-favoured weapons. No one would profit of it as much as the Estonians, and you can give an easy and quick, but still lore-friendly boost. The same way just downgrade the weapons (or in general equipment) which favours a currently overpowered race. Maybe you could also make individually adjustments to the max levels. Maybe the race gets older or dies younger - would explain, why they have a higher/lower max mortal level. Or it takes more/less experience to gain a mortal level.

I think to fully understand what you try to achieve, but imo the chosen/favoured solution is neither the easiest/quickest to implement one, nor does it stand out for any specific reason as possibly best (I don't see what could be achieved by it, which can't be achieved by any of the other options). I even think replacing stat differences by skill differences is not necessarily a real solution, because it is likely that you just replace the cause (now stats) of the imbalance with a different cause (then skills). You could just simply adjust the current differences (makes less work than introducing new skills and you at least would benefit of the experiences gained so far and it would be more of a re-adjusting), but new skills sound exciting, so there is nothing wrong with new skills. But it's neither necessary to introduce race-skills, nor to remove race based stats, in order to achieve balance. Another approach could also be, if the stats are currently favouring races, just with the new skills to favour the other races (I think if balance is necessary at all, then only in total - it's fine if a race might suck by skills but rule by stats).

Don't get me wrong, this is no "Stop! How dare you?" I am far too little and haven't seen anything here, maybe already next week I myself can't wait for things to change. I just think the approach HOW it shall be solved seems to likely to replace issues with new ones for the cost of what would make sense, butd also what new players would expect during character creation: that a dwarf is stronger than an elf, and an elf smarter than a dwarf. If you don't tell the player then, they will be likely disappointed as soon as they find out. Now you could tell them during creation "stats are not (or maybe not much) different", then most players will be surprised (and probably not positive surprised, but for sure surprised). You can tell them then "but you will have different skills", which only leads to more questions and they just wanted to create a character and jump into the game. There isn't so much anyway, what one could call "common knowledge" in the fantasy genre, but those few should be really sticked to. I'm not much into fantasy but was surprised that the blacksmith in Dwarfheim is closed; it seems as likely as a Nintendo console without any Super Mario titles. If I would find an axe, which can't be wielded by dwarves I probably would report a bug, because even I know that dwarves are small, drink, etc, and are masters with axes and in blacksmithing, but suck in magic. And those expectations are intended, or you wouldn't have chosen to use use races people mostly know, so I really wouldn't break with those expectations now either.

I think differences (especially, but not limited only to stats) based on race are an important part of the whole fantasy thing and are expected, but they are also a great opportunity to not have to think about balanced skills either (favour the skills of those with a disadvantage in stats, and give those who are currently favoured with stats* the crappier skills). And when you notice the next imbalance, you will have two additional options for adjustments (you can lower the skills/ boost the stats of the one, or increase the skills/ reduce the stats of the other).

*but ignore the spell casting of humans since it is based on a bug. And do the same for all other bug based issues. Those bugs will be fixed eventually, hopefully soon.

But those are really just my 2 cents. I feel like im not worthy to object, since I'm too new. I'm therefore absolutely fine with it if you go to fully ignore my view. Just wanted to share this view

Thalric
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Thalric » 05 Feb 2021 14:33

Zhar wrote:
05 Feb 2021 03:50
ho ruled the combat department when strength was not factored in for melee damage and dexterity was used in its place.

Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe we could change the combat formulas again? We could maybe make it so that your best stat is used for damage (str or dex) and perhaps your hp pool/natural AC could be governed by more than 1 stat (con and wis for example, making dwarfs more hardy than goblins). Perhaps that's an avenue worth investigating as this way we could potentially balance out the races combat-wise without altering their stat progression.
I don't think that either goblins or dwarves have any modifications to wisdom.
If you changed it to either intelligence or discipline, it would make a noticeable impact.

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Cherek
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Cherek » 05 Feb 2021 14:38

Thanks for your suggestions Kjartan, and yes, your suggestions are also viable solutions. I am not saying your idea would not work, it definitely could. It would be possible to try to "upgrade" the weaker races by giving them something special, and we could also "nerf" the most powerful races by giving them penalties of some sort, and it would likely be a simpler way to do it technically. However, there is a lot of moving parts in that solution. Then we have to try to balance the stat differeces _and_ other abilities/special weapons, or whatever it is, which makes it an even more complex equation than it already is. I generally think that the less "moving parts" the easier it is to balance it. I think this solution would be harder to balance, and keep it balanced, as other things change in the game.

I realize "my" solution may also come with potential problems, since as you say, we replace stats with another system, which also could be hard to balance. That is true, but at least we get a "fresh start", and we don't have to try to build on a system that hundreds of people have created for over 30 years. Genesis is a patchwork of ideas and systems, which is part of the charm and why it's sometimes charmingly quirky... :) But from a balance point of view it also makes it complex to adjust. Starting with a clean sheet would not be a bad idea I think.

I do have one question. You say that new players would expect a dwarf be stronger than an elf, and an elf smarter than a dwarf, etc, but... does that have to mean a difference in stat modifiers? I am not a big gamer anymore, but in my experience, differences between races/species etc tend to be quite minor? For example, one of the most popular fantasy games the last.. decade(?) was Skyrim, and in that game all races are, unless I remember wrong, physically equal, but they are set apart by some minor +/- in skills and a minor ability or boost specific to that race. These differences are small, though, and you can be an elf, an orc, a human or a cat(?), and they're all equally powerful "stat-wise". I don't find that strange at all, and in my experience this kind of setup is pretty common practice in many games?

I honestly dont think any new player would be surprised by something like this (I stripped it down to two abilities for simplicity in this example):

Code: Select all

Pick a race:

1. Human.
2. Elf.
3. Dwarf.
4. Hobbit.
5. Gnome.
6. Goblin.

To learn more about the different races in Genesis and what 
sets them apart, type 'help <race name>'.

help elf

Elves are smart and nimble and have a natural ability to dodge 
hits in combat, and they also regenerate mana quicker.

help dwarf

Dwarves are strong and sturdy and can carry heavy loads as well 
as absorb hits in combat.
Is this really be something that would _disappoint_ the majority of new players? If that happens, that wouldn't be good... but... I just don't see it happening. Maybe I am different than the majority, but personally I don't think the above would be very strange? You would get abilities that fit the expected differences (elves are smart, dwarves are strong, etc), without it affecting your stat modifiers. I don't think anyone would be surprised that your stats grow at the same pace as a hobbit, elf, or goblin? That I think would be expected, since in most games, you grow at the same rate regardless of your choice of race and gender? I mean, orcs dont hit enemies harder than elves or humans in Skyrim (and many other fantasy games), and I think most gamers are fine with that, and would even expect it to be the case?

Thalric
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Thalric » 05 Feb 2021 16:50

I think it sounds like an amazing idea.
It might even mean that Genesis gets a wider variety of used races, as people can choose to play anything, without it really impacting the strength of their character in any major way.

Rache
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Rache » 05 Feb 2021 21:14

I think it's a great idea, Cherek. The bonuses to stats should be relatively small but meaningful, and these extra abilities would be cool. Invincible dwarves for the win!

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Zhar
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Zhar » 06 Feb 2021 05:21

Dwarves are already invincible...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Redblade
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Redblade » 06 Feb 2021 15:48

Hey everyone!

Just to note where I can see the disadvantage of the current system with a few hypothetical scenarios. I'm picking certain sizes, but most of this is even more visible as you grow more and more
Imagine you're in a guild that engages in PvP often (daily/weekly). It's a guild of melee fighters that however don't accept goblins haven't seen a dwarf join in a couple years (so at best you can find high dex or humans). On your adversary is a guild of melee fighters as well, that do naturally engage with goblins and ogres and such (so people with huge str and con).

You see a foe attacking an area that you are supposed to thematically protect. You go and you both introduce (right? but this scenario is rather hypothetical anyway, isn't it?). You both are expert size. Except the guy standing in front of you is a goblin and you're... well, be it human, elf or hobbit (face it, gnome melee fighter would be pretty rare, trying to describe a typical situation). So that means that if you went <set evenly> the whole game, the goblin is around what, 3 levels of str and 3 levels of con above you in average (goblin str does first number, hobbit/elf con does the other)? Go and fight that goblin now... so you do, you suck, you go home, sleep repeat tomorrow. Can get frustrating.

Imagine you're a human going even stats. At a bigger expert size, you die, sad experience. You see a flash of light, Lars appears. You ask him "hey Lars, when am I going to be mighty (note, mighty is a str level) so that I don' die that much?" Lars shows you two paths. One, you remain human going even stats. You reach mighty at around titan. The other path is you become a goblin. Guess when you reach mighty? Nearly instantly, maybe next size. This scenario is hypothetical, Lars never shows you that. However those sizes aren't. I tested. This much of a size takes the "goblin str advantage". Oh I am sure their dis sucks. I love having dis. Really helps me to... yeah. Right.

Now combine the two situations. I personally can't say "yeah, that's how it's supposed to be" without giving trying to change this a shot. Can you?
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

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Zhar
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Zhar » 06 Feb 2021 20:19

From my experience it is possible to fight on equal footing and even beat goblins as elf of the same size. It depends on a lot of factors.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Amberlee
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Amberlee » 07 Feb 2021 13:10

1 vs 1 a goblin will always win on even stat average with similar equipment.
It isn't even a competition.
So what you say here Zhar is just completely and utterly wrong in every sense of the word.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Cherek
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Re: Racial Rebalancing News?

Post by Cherek » 07 Feb 2021 13:21

Zhar wrote:
06 Feb 2021 20:19
From my experience it is possible to fight on equal footing and even beat goblins as elf of the same size. It depends on a lot of factors.
What factors are those?

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