Alignment

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Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 303
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Alignment

Post by Nerull » 05 Jan 2021 17:19

Variants of dual-grinders are also an option:

Area randomly spawns with either good or evil npcs after armageddon. When an evil player kills the last goodie npc in the room, it will spawn an evil npc there instead. To make it interesting, could ensure the npc's represents guildnpcs from the last killer, giving him/her an incentive to protect the area, hence creating a zone of conflict.

Or alternatively, kill the boss of the camp, and the camp despawns and repopulates with your guildnpcs'. High xp and high loot rewards should make such an area quite interesting... :evil:

The premise is ofcourse that if evils kills their own npc, no xp or loot is rewarded.

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Cherek
Site Admin
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Alignment

Post by Cherek » 05 Jan 2021 18:55

Nerull wrote:
05 Jan 2021 17:19
Variants of dual-grinders are also an option:

Area randomly spawns with either good or evil npcs after armageddon. When an evil player kills the last goodie npc in the room, it will spawn an evil npc there instead. To make it interesting, could ensure the npc's represents guildnpcs from the last killer, giving him/her an incentive to protect the area, hence creating a zone of conflict.

Or alternatively, kill the boss of the camp, and the camp despawns and repopulates with your guildnpcs'. High xp and high loot rewards should make such an area quite interesting... :evil:

The premise is ofcourse that if evils kills their own npc, no xp or loot is rewarded.
Although, unless the reward for protecting an area is really really really good, players would of course _not_ kill the last NPC. Why "give away" a good XP area to the enemy?

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 303
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Alignment

Post by Nerull » 05 Jan 2021 19:03

Cherek wrote:
05 Jan 2021 18:55
Nerull wrote:
05 Jan 2021 17:19
Variants of dual-grinders are also an option:

Area randomly spawns with either good or evil npcs after armageddon. When an evil player kills the last goodie npc in the room, it will spawn an evil npc there instead. To make it interesting, could ensure the npc's represents guildnpcs from the last killer, giving him/her an incentive to protect the area, hence creating a zone of conflict.

Or alternatively, kill the boss of the camp, and the camp despawns and repopulates with your guildnpcs'. High xp and high loot rewards should make such an area quite interesting... :evil:

The premise is ofcourse that if evils kills their own npc, no xp or loot is rewarded.
Although, unless the reward for protecting an area is really really really good, players would of course _not_ kill the last NPC. Why "give away" a good XP area to the enemy?
Probably ways to fix that. ;)

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Alignment

Post by Thalric » 05 Jan 2021 19:16

Very nice with new ideas.
Make a new post about that, like everyone else does. :)

The subject is alignment and how it is screwed and skewered.
It is not about single grind areas or which side does or does not lack grind areas.
The way good-align is gained takes at least 10 times as long as it takes to become evil.

Please focus on that. And fix that. And then be smart about other stuff afterwards.
One problem at the time. And this one is more important. :)

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Cherek
Site Admin
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Re: Alignment

Post by Cherek » 05 Jan 2021 19:23

Thalric wrote:
05 Jan 2021 19:16
Very nice with new ideas.
Make a new post about that, like everyone else does. :)

The subject is alignment and how it is screwed and skewered.
It is not about single grind areas or which side does or does not lack grind areas.
The way good-align is gained takes at least 10 times as long as it takes to become evil.

Please focus on that. And fix that. And then be smart about other stuff afterwards.
One problem at the time. And this one is more important. :)
Well, I agree the thread derailed a little, but it is still relevant to discuss what will happen if we do change the alignment system so it takes the same time to go become good/evil.

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Alignment

Post by Thalric » 05 Jan 2021 21:07

I have a really hard time understanding what it is you fear will go so horribly wrong?
Are there any guilds that will be broken? Good is still good and evil is still evil...
Any xp places that will explode or the balance of them go totally wrong?
Qualinost and ents will still be very holy, GK and mithas neutral. And then TT and dark elves will become more evil.

That was for the big places.
You should probably change Kabal to be neutral or the guards/kargs in Gont to be evil.
As you wrote yourself, the mid-size goodies have it even worse than the big ones.

Dan
Adventurer
Posts: 88
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Alignment

Post by Dan » 05 Jan 2021 21:39

My suggestion is still the opposite of making it harder for evils but instead easier for goods:
- make good becoming evil formula same as evil becoming good
- make very good npcs either neutral (same as GK) or reduce their goodalignedness drastically (same as TT/Mithas/GK)
- make some mid tier areas neutral (kabal, kalaman?, dark elves)

Edit: tested going from damned to saintly (holy seems impossible in my timeframe) by killing haradrims for 14 hours.... and i know it takes 7 kills from holy -> neutral on qualinesti elves - so about 2-4 minutes.....

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Redblade
Adept
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Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Alignment

Post by Redblade » 06 Jan 2021 00:26

Nerull wrote:
05 Jan 2021 10:45
If we want to improve Genesis for all its players, we must strive to ensure that every step is playable for all factions, and not just for a few or certain factions. Yes, even the High end, or End game content (which isn't really the problem here).
Yet very so often global change are made so that certain guilds didn't adapt (weren't uptated) to them. You know which guilds I'm talking about, let's just leave it there, but I don't think this statement currently applies. That's not to defend the idea we should also make this change an improvement for only part of players. But it somehow feels odd. I would also question if we truly do want to make an improvement for all players. I don't think it's currently balanced and I would not mind if only one side of the three (remember neutrals) got an improvement. :)
Dan wrote:
05 Jan 2021 16:49
Hence I suggest making goodies drop as slowly as evils is the superior solution over making it 'harder' for evils, make it even for goodies instead - and e.g. kabal why not make all the guards near neutral ?

Everytime an evil npc xp area is out there, they get nerfed to near neutral - do the same for goodie npcs, nerf them to near neutral so that all can xp anywhere they roleplaying wise feels comfortable with.
As certain guilds work, if it's any slight good, you're still bound not to attack it. We don't get a "yeah, this guy is good, but only slightly so it's okay to kill him" kind of notice. We get a "don't harm this guy" notice.
In my eyes, making good NPCs "less good" will not make them hunting ground for good players. It will only become slower for evil players to regain their align after killing those hours of evil NPCs. Where I see the catch here is that neutrals will lose the option to adapt swiftly, virtually rendering this option impossible. Therefore the way I see truly lays in making so that when evil kills evil, they get good rapidly. Same as it is the other way around :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 303
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Alignment

Post by Nerull » 06 Jan 2021 11:04

There are some major issues with doing it that way though, Redblade. First, we probably cut over 50% of the available gamecontent in one swift blow for evil players, which is not exactly a minor nerf. My current summary of high end and intermediate grinders and itemholders shows that majority of those are evil aligned, so we don't fix the problem, we just reverse it with the possibility of a very large blowback. Yep - there are way larger evil-aligned xp footprints than goodie-aligned in both high-end and intermediate range, but at the same time and the current situation is that evil can kill all with near impunity, with only the necessity of quick alignment-adjustments.

So we end up at a worse position that we are today, unless we somehow compensate to ensure xp footprint, itemization access etc gets into equilibrium (or close to). which requires...you probably guessed it: additional developmenttime.

If we went this route, we would need to prepare content in advance or risk alienating half of our playerbase.

The easiest way to fix this imbalance though is to allow good-alignment to drop as slow as the evil-alignment, at the possible expense of thematic dilemmas.

Drazson
Titan
Posts: 499
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: Alignment

Post by Drazson » 06 Jan 2021 12:16

I have a personal rule to not kill good things with good characters so I'm fucked for life anyway (hello dear rangers and others lets have our fun), but this conversation sounds like this and I don't get it:

"We want bigger apples!"
"Interesting. Having white instead of red and green apples might make the evil players start not having apples though."
"Bigger, not white! Bigger."
"Ah, yes, apples could be cube-shaped but that's thematically off, we can't go changing fruits' shapes. We could maybe make them bigger to solve the issue."
--> We are here, supposed to give further input to the conversation.

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