Alignment

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3612
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Alignment

Post by Cherek » 02 Jan 2021 19:41

Thalric wrote:
02 Jan 2021 13:56
Cherek wrote:
31 Dec 2020 17:18
It's been discussed many times. I think we were pretty close to making a change a while ago, but, for some reason this suggestion was iced for a while. I don't remember exactly why, but I guess something else got in the way.

In my opinion, it would be good for game balance if going from good to evil, and from evil to good, took the same amount of time and worked the same way. Thematically/logically, the current system makes sense of course. Once you start murdering innocent people you become evil quickly, while it takes much longer to redeem yourself and become good. But to better balance good/evil in Genesis, it would likely be better if it is the same both ways.

It's definitely still a possibility, question is, what kind of negative side-effects have we not thought about?
What kind of side-effects can there be about making alignment equally easy or hard to achieve for both good and evil???
Nothing!!

Evil players having to think about if they kill evil stuff for too long? Ohh the horror!
I am sure it will be really hard for them! Or imagine the hardship they will have when some goodies come and take some of their ents, kabal guards or centaurs from them!
I am sure they will all drop dead and die from lack of npc's to kill...

Or perhaps being evil while growing will just stop being such a huge added benefit.
Yes, huge side-effect that! We better not do it!
Well, a global change to a system that have worked one way for 30 years will most likely come with unforseen side-effects. Changing the way EQ saves introduced various (mostly minor) issues and bugs that we had not thought of (and we had thought of quite a few), so changing the alignment system will likely mean some unforseen things too. I was asking you players, if there is something you can think of that would happen, that we have not thought of.

One thing I can think of is that if we make it slower for goodies to drop in align, it will be easier for them to sidestep their theme expected RP-style. If it takes 10 kills to drop from holy to blessed instead of 1, goodie guilds will be able to kill a lot more good NPCs without technically being penalized by their guild. What effects will that have on the goodie guilds? Do we need to make changes to any guild for them to keep their "goodie" nature?

If we go the other route, and make it much quicker to go from damned to neutral, what effect will that have on the evil guilds? It will likely be a pretty big nerf for them, so that has to be considered as well. I do believe things should be more equal than they are now, and evil players do have it easier than goodies due to the current alignment system, but if there is a way we can make things equal _without_ angering half the playerbase, that's obviously the best solution.

So, which "scale" would you prefer we pick? Should it become much easier for evils to go from damned to neutral? Or should it become harder for goodies to go from holy to neutral? Or a mix of both?

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Alignment

Post by Thalric » 02 Jan 2021 20:46

I would say that evils have had an easy time for 30 years.

It is clearly time for it to stop.

Sure it might anger evils, but any more than the global EQ "nerf" is doing now?

Rip off the band-aid and get it over with.

User avatar
Skythus
Adventurer
Posts: 91
Joined: 12 Oct 2019 21:59

Re: Alignment

Post by Skythus » 02 Jan 2021 22:07

I think a lot of the alignment argument is a symptom of not having enough enemies to grind. Of course there are other things, like EQ availability, quests, etc.

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Alignment

Post by Thalric » 03 Jan 2021 02:25

Skythus wrote:
02 Jan 2021 22:07
I think a lot of the alignment argument is a symptom of not having enough enemies to grind. Of course there are other things, like EQ availability, quests, etc.
To me it is more about an issue of things being unfair.
One side has it completely easy, while the other needs to take a lot of considerations.

And it's all probably based on the idea, founded in some RL considerations, that killing good/innocent people will make you evil faster than trying to redeem yourself by killing evil people.

But that idea is flawed and moronic. In RL it doesn't matter who you kill.
You're still a murderer! And society will shun you and lock you up, if they don't execute you.

Rache
Adventurer
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Aug 2019 22:31
Location: Kaiserslautern

Re: Alignment

Post by Rache » 03 Jan 2021 02:30

Thalric wrote:
02 Jan 2021 20:46
I would say that evils have had an easy time for 30 years.
I agree with you, it is easier to kill/grow as an evil player. I think things that are evil should be more evil, like terel trolls. I also think GK mobs should be evil, you know, as they are undeads and auto-attack everyone on sight. In another thread, Zugzug argued that the witch and dragon should be evil but the undeads be good-aligned, but based on their behaviour that mimics evil-only beings in the game, a change should be made. I believe the rationale from the wizards at the time was "it's too good of an xp area to not have it neutral. It should be enjoyed by everyone."

I don't like when wizards pick and choose which logic they wish to follow, on any given day. Cohesive themes are important to the game. If we can't use RL logic, wizards can't use XP as an excuse, either.

User avatar
Redblade
Adept
Posts: 112
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Alignment

Post by Redblade » 03 Jan 2021 12:26

Cherek wrote:
02 Jan 2021 19:41
One thing I can think of is that if we make it slower for goodies to drop in align, it will be easier for them to sidestep their theme expected RP-style. If it takes 10 kills to drop from holy to blessed instead of 1, goodie guilds will be able to kill a lot more good NPCs without technically being penalized by their guild. What effects will that have on the goodie guilds? Do we need to make changes to any guild for them to keep their "goodie" nature?
My two copper coins:
1. You're forgetting that several goodie guilds are bound not to attack ANYONE good aligned. Make it 1 or 10 kills for alignment level, they are bound not to do it. These guilds will be unaffected by such change, their perspective remaining the same. Where the balance could be seen in my eyes is in limiting how many evil NPCs can an evil player kill without suffering consequences. This will both give good players more of their natural hunting ground and somewhat balance the alignment shfting rate.

2. In this, perhaps if we'd go with Rache's suggestion and make GK evil, you'd have to carefully balance it - that hunting ground truly is too excellent and there's no arguing that evil players would suffer on experience somewhat if they lost a fair shot GK. What I'd welcome though, that all guilds had a fair shot there. :) Perhaps the best hunting ground should not be a place where several guilds' specials have no effects.
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Rache
Adventurer
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Aug 2019 22:31
Location: Kaiserslautern

Re: Alignment

Post by Rache » 03 Jan 2021 14:04

Redblade wrote:
03 Jan 2021 12:26
2. In this, perhaps if we'd go with Rache's suggestion and make GK evil, you'd have to carefully balance it - that hunting ground truly is too excellent and there's no arguing that evil players would suffer on experience somewhat if they lost a fair shot GK. What I'd welcome though, that all guilds had a fair shot there. :) Perhaps the best hunting ground should not be a place where several guilds' specials have no effects.
If it is truly to be the utopia of experience with all previously-held notions of alignment ignored, then yes, all guilds should have a fair shot to compete there as long as the players are of sufficient size. If these undeads are neutral, then they should have a solar plexus, because they are far different from any other undeads that exist in the realms. I'm not sure if you were referring to any other guilds, that's just the obvious one that came to mind.

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3612
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Alignment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 21:47

Redblade: Yes I know some goodie guilds are already very restrictive, so for them it won't be a big change. but for others, where you can drop relatively far, or even all the way to neutral, it will be a big change, as they will suddenly be able to throw RP and theme out the window and go grind in Kabal and Qualinost for long periods. Unless, of course, the guild's leadeship forbids it, but the code itself will no longer be much of an obstacle.

And yes, I agree that goodie guilds are generally more restricted by align, which is a big disadvantage for them. It would make sense from a game balance perspecive if many evils guild also were more restrictive with that. From a theme perspective it probably makes a bit less sense, but, we really have to choose here I think. Either we accept the current logic that it's harder to stay good, and also harder to earn redemption from evil acts. Or, we forget that idea, and just make it the same for both sides.

If we want to even things out, I think the easiest and most fair solution is to make it really quick to go from damned to neutral if you kill evil stuff, and equally quick to go from holy to neutral if you kill good stuff. Most evil guilds don't let you be more good than neutral, and if the path to neutral is very quick, we don't have to change any guilds, because then evils wont realistically be able to grind in goodie grinders, and vice versa. So, it's now fair. Depending on how many grinders we have for each align of course... and... neutral players/guilds will still have the biggest benefit of course. Actually, their relative benefit will now be even bigger, since both goodies AND evils will be at a disadvatage compared to neutrals when it comes to grinding, as they will be the only ones who can grind anywhere. So, we still have that problem...

Thalric
Rising Hero
Posts: 343
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Alignment

Post by Thalric » 04 Jan 2021 01:40

They could also meet halfway of where things are now.

If you turn evil at a rate of 10 points per goodie kill, and 1 point good per evil kill (just to use random numbers)...
It could make sense to make it be 5 points for either way.

It will be faster for evils to become good.. and slower for goodies to become evil.
I would find that to be an excellent solution. :)

User avatar
Skythus
Adventurer
Posts: 91
Joined: 12 Oct 2019 21:59

Re: Alignment

Post by Skythus » 04 Jan 2021 07:06

Thalric wrote:
04 Jan 2021 01:40
It will be faster for evils to become good.. and slower for goodies to become evil.
I would find that to be an excellent solution. :)
Thematically I think that's strange. Why not impose restrictions on evil guilds themselves to keep it "harder" to be good but not give evil the freedom to dip within evil-grin? I guess it's more work

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/