Recruitment?

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Makfly
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Recruitment?

Post by Makfly » 21 Jan 2021 22:52

Cherek wrote:
21 Jan 2021 13:15
Yes, I do think a change to the growth curve would have the biggest positive effect of Nils' suggestions, and it's still something I would like to do. I did try it out myself on our test server several years ago. Growth rate up to hero was roughly doubled if I remember right, and I created a new character and started from scratch. It was a much more enjoyable experience because it made it so much easier to quest and grind for money, and seeing stats and mortal levels go up fairly often was also motivating. My growth rate would slow down to our current rate after hero, and slow down more than our current rate after champion. So, it would still be just as hard as it is now to become huge, but easier to reach champion, and much easier to reach hero.

A change like this would make new players progress quicker and also even out the size difference between players, so that more players would play in the same league. Meaning they can both team up and cooperate on more even terms but also fight on more even terms. Being old and huge would still come with a benefit, but it would be smaller than it is now, and new players would be able to reach a reasonable size without spending years playing.

Since stats would grow slower than now after champion, my idea is to instead introcude a "skill tree" once you reach champion level. This skill tree would unlock various small but fun perks, and would make it (hopefully) more fun to grind than just watching your stats grow slowly. Even slower than today (and it's pretty slow as it is). The skill tree would generally make players more versatile, but not much more powerful, and players would be able to choose different directions for their character. On the other hand, players who don't want to grind much more after champion would be a little smaller than those who do, and miss out on some perks, but they would still be able to compete with the bigger players, as the difference in overall "power" would be much smaller than it is today. My hope is that it would encourage some players to focus on things like running their guilds, RP, or just sitting around chatting, without always feeling that they _have to_ grind to keep up with other players.

Now, changing the growth curve is quick and simple. The skill tree is what would take time here, and the main reason this project hasn't gotten further. Well, that, and the fact that it would be a pretty controversial change.
This sounds awesome.
The player size inflation and player size disparity is something that's been talked about for decades, but even if most can agree that it is an issue, nothing much have ever been done about. From the sound of it, you have made more progress towards some change that can be a part of dealing with the issue. So I really hope that you, or someone else, will be able to pick up and run further with it.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Amberlee
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Amberlee » 22 Jan 2021 01:48

Cherek wrote:
21 Jan 2021 13:15
Yes, I do think a change to the growth curve would have the biggest positive effect of Nils' suggestions, and it's still something I would like to do. I did try it out myself on our test server several years ago. Growth rate up to hero was roughly doubled if I remember right, and I created a new character and started from scratch. It was a much more enjoyable experience because it made it so much easier to quest and grind for money, and seeing stats and mortal levels go up fairly often was also motivating. My growth rate would slow down to our current rate after hero, and slow down more than our current rate after champion. So, it would still be just as hard as it is now to become huge, but easier to reach champion, and much easier to reach hero.

A change like this would make new players progress quicker and also even out the size difference between players, so that more players would play in the same league. Meaning they can both team up and cooperate on more even terms but also fight on more even terms. Being old and huge would still come with a benefit, but it would be smaller than it is now, and new players would be able to reach a reasonable size without spending years playing.

Since stats would grow slower than now after champion, my idea is to instead introcude a "skill tree" once you reach champion level. This skill tree would unlock various small but fun perks, and would make it (hopefully) more fun to grind than just watching your stats grow slowly. Even slower than today (and it's pretty slow as it is). The skill tree would generally make players more versatile, but not much more powerful, and players would be able to choose different directions for their character. On the other hand, players who don't want to grind much more after champion would be a little smaller than those who do, and miss out on some perks, but they would still be able to compete with the bigger players, as the difference in overall "power" would be much smaller than it is today. My hope is that it would encourage some players to focus on things like running their guilds, RP, or just sitting around chatting, without always feeling that they _have to_ grind to keep up with other players.

Now, changing the growth curve is quick and simple. The skill tree is what would take time here, and the main reason this project hasn't gotten further. Well, that, and the fact that it would be a pretty controversial change.
Honestly I really like the idea of skill tree.
Give players the choice of perks to assign with points.
For example choosing a perk that would give bonus XP to players below champion could be one to help them even faster up to that size?
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Cherek
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Cherek » 22 Jan 2021 13:36

Well, sure, everything is possible with a skill tree, and we could add new branches and upgrades over time as well. I think it would make grinding more fun, but also even things out, making the game more fun as a whole as more players would be able to actually play together.

Drazson
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Drazson » 22 Jan 2021 13:42

If you would like to make a post regarding wizardly thoughts on such a system, that would be awesome. Sounds like a groundbreaking, refreshing change to Genesis.

Strictly on the topic, the xp curve change can be a first change to look at. Since the wizzies are swamped anyway, not widen it too much and allow it to fall to nothingness.

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nils
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by nils » 23 Jan 2021 05:02

Redblade wrote:
20 Jan 2021 23:13
nils wrote:
20 Jan 2021 20:30
Addendum, promoting newbie aid

There is already a small bonus for taking a small player on a team and go out killing. This promotes social interaction, mutual growth and so on and so forth.

What about increasing said profits? Imagine seeing the bored super-myths fight over the newbies! Hillarious and productive!
And very, very easily abusable too, in my opinion. Basically all you need is a friend to skip the Tutori Isle and idle while you get a benefit from dragging them.
While actually a plausible scenario, it's not very likely to become common practice, considering said friend would need to actually pay attention to a game he or she might not care for. Maybe a good one will do it for you a couple hours? In either case, the wizards actually have tools to reveal such tactics, and the reward certainly ain't worth having half your experience removed without recovery, or worse character deleted.

Anyway, you've repeatedly said you prioritize roleplay over growth, making sacrifices such as refusing to have a special attack for whatever masochistic reasons, and I fully respect your decision and I am happy you're able to enjoy the game the way you choose to.
However, your play style naturally and neccessarily leaves you pretty clueless to the ordeal that is 'the grind'.

I'll lift the veil a little for you: When grinding for hours on end (and I don't expect anyone to be so naive that they believe I stare at the scrolling text 100% of the time) I actively time my progress levels. At my current size I'm happy if I make one progress level in less then an hour if effective and lucky with spawned areas, transportation etc.

As Rache also mentioned above (I just can't be bothered to double quote) there is already a system in place to lower the team average to boost the team's total experience gain. My personal experience with it is that the effect is negligible, even just theoretical. In theory it may shave off a minute or two, but there's really no way of knowing wether the increased progress-rate is due to a sudden burst in effectiveness, sudden equipment upgrades or the newbie on the team.

The bonus then, while being very real, remains hovering in the theoretical realm, and doesn't tip the scale in favour of bringing a newbie on the team. In the big scheme of things, the current reward simply isn't worth the effort, and if any of you think that a "newbie-bonus" increased to the equivalent of, let's say, a 5 minute reduction per progress level would in any way break the game to a higher degree than team teleport to custom destinations you're flat out disillusioned.

I would only seriously consider actively seeking out a newbie to team with if I'd actually register the difference.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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Redblade
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Redblade » 23 Jan 2021 12:42

nils wrote:
23 Jan 2021 05:02
Redblade wrote:
20 Jan 2021 23:13
nils wrote:
20 Jan 2021 20:30
Addendum, promoting newbie aid

There is already a small bonus for taking a small player on a team and go out killing. This promotes social interaction, mutual growth and so on and so forth.

What about increasing said profits? Imagine seeing the bored super-myths fight over the newbies! Hillarious and productive!
And very, very easily abusable too, in my opinion. Basically all you need is a friend to skip the Tutori Isle and idle while you get a benefit from dragging them.
While actually a plausible scenario, it's not very likely to become common practice, considering said friend would need to actually pay attention to a game he or she might not care for. Maybe a good one will do it for you a couple hours? In either case, the wizards actually have tools to reveal such tactics, and the reward certainly ain't worth having half your experience removed without recovery, or worse character deleted.

Anyway, you've repeatedly said you prioritize roleplay over growth, making sacrifices such as refusing to have a special attack for whatever masochistic reasons, and I fully respect your decision and I am happy you're able to enjoy the game the way you choose to.
However, your play style naturally and neccessarily leaves you pretty clueless to the ordeal that is 'the grind'.

I'll lift the veil a little for you: When grinding for hours on end (and I don't expect anyone to be so naive that they believe I stare at the scrolling text 100% of the time) I actively time my progress levels. At my current size I'm happy if I make one progress level in less then an hour if effective and lucky with spawned areas, transportation etc.

As Rache also mentioned above (I just can't be bothered to double quote) there is already a system in place to lower the team average to boost the team's total experience gain. My personal experience with it is that the effect is negligible, even just theoretical. In theory it may shave off a minute or two, but there's really no way of knowing wether the increased progress-rate is due to a sudden burst in effectiveness, sudden equipment upgrades or the newbie on the team.

The bonus then, while being very real, remains hovering in the theoretical realm, and doesn't tip the scale in favour of bringing a newbie on the team. In the big scheme of things, the current reward simply isn't worth the effort, and if any of you think that a "newbie-bonus" increased to the equivalent of, let's say, a 5 minute reduction per progress level would in any way break the game to a higher degree than team teleport to custom destinations you're flat out disillusioned.

I would only seriously consider actively seeking out a newbie to team with if I'd actually register the difference.
You twist my words Nils. I didn't say I refuse to have a special. I merely said that if that's what it takes, then I'll pay that prize for a better roleplay. Thanks for the lift of the veil. I stand 13th on Heavyweight Vanquishers of the week. Nothing more to add. You should try playing without that special and then perhaps you can understand what ordeal the grind truly can be. And as you surely know, just grabbing a random newbie and asking them to team me really doesn't suit my roleplay :) Thanks for the help though, I guess :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Areficent
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Areficent » 23 Jan 2021 17:49

I guess this is somewhat related to the “helping people get past the tutorial” part of this thread!

What about introducing a Newbie (Helper) club?

As someone who, personally, enjoys interacting with newbies and helping them out in any way I possibly can, I think that alongside the newbie chat line, a club of sorts could be made.

Everything here is just for the sake of debate, of course! :D But I have fleshed out some basic ideas.

The purpose of the club: As well as being a newbie (helper), one can join the club, and within that club helpers could advertise that they are willing and have time to spend on teaching and growing newbies. I think introducing a proper “mentorship” system would be good, which could keep track of which newbie helpers have already an "assigned" newbie and which don’t. But also the individual keeping track of it by themself would not be a bad system. However to avoid one person picking up all newbies, maybe some restrictions could apply?

Benefits for the newbie: They would have a dedicated place to go to look for someone to help them figure the game out in general; not just gain general/quest experience. Obviously, only if they want to do that in the first place. It would promote direct interaction with (primarily bigger) players, and could also include some fun roleplay for both sides!

Benefits for the helper: Next to none. I imagine giving away little trinkets like maybe a special newbie helper pin that is different from the one that is currently used could be fun. Other ideas that crossed my mind that aren’t aesthetic items: a messenger that can only be sent between newbies and helpers registered in the club (maybe like regular chipmunks, but they are described as “helpful chipmunks”?), a book that can be easily used for taking notes of any kind (for tracking the newbie’s progress maybe?), a special scabbard/backpack/herb jar/coin purse or other storage item. These items could be used by both helpers and newbies.

Additional ideas for the club space itself:

The club hall could be opened in the back room of Sparkle church: one with a board upon which willing newbie helpers can post notes of their availability (to which newbies could respond via mail, or a club-exclusive system of contacting these helpers), and one room which could serve as a lounge for any newbie and newbie helper. I imagine the board room and lounge would both remain peace-warded, however talking would be allowed within the lounge itself. Maybe a donation box could be set up, like the one in the Sparkle AG, but that might be redundant.

The lounge would serve as a great place for newbies to meet each other and for helpers to meet said newbies and go through, if they wish, a process of deciding if they would be fit for one another.

I think that giving any sort of boost to the newbie helper would defeat the purpose of being a helper. In my opinion, if you want to help, you should do it without getting anything in return. I understand that might mean very few people would actually want to do it, but even having just a small team of helpers could be beneficial! And, knowing how pasionate people who do help are, it would be worth it.

This next point is coming from a very guild-specific point of concern. Whenever I meet newbies, I almost never introduce myself to them. Obviously, if you take one (or maybe two, three) specific newbie(s), it would feel very cold to not introduce. To aid this issue (which I know a few more people might have) a special introduction that only newbie helpers can use for their assigned newbies (and vice-versa) could be put in place. So instead of, for example, me introducing myself as “Areficent [rest of my titles]”, it could be “Areficent the newbie helper, [size], [gender], [race]” And they still see my name as I walk around and talk to them and such. However when they do <who f>, they only see the newbie helper title. I’d also like it if those introductions cannot be remembered when the helper/newbie relationship ends, so the helper and newbie would have to properly introduce one another. Additionally, this newbie/helper title could increase the more time you spend with newbies/helpers!

Perhaps once the newbie reached a certain level (veteran?) they would automatically be removed from the club as a newbie. Or, alternatively, they can stay for as long as they want, as long as they have an assigned helper and the helper actually wants them.

I would like to note that this sort of system could easily be used as recruitment for guilds. I don’t know how to feel about it, as every time I took a newbie out and helped them, I never tried to recruit them for my guild. If they showed interest, then I’d talk to them as much as I could allow myself, but otherwise I never bothered recruiting. So, take this as a consequence or benefit. I’d say it would be more of a consequence than benefit, but that is my opinion.

So... Any ideas or thoughts? I understand coding such a club would probably be difficult, and it would have to be checked for how many people would want to be helpers or would use the club themselves, but I think it is better than having just the newbie helper line, which is entirely OOC and feels very distant and cold at times (for good reason).

Thalric
Expert
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Thalric » 23 Jan 2021 18:38

I dont think a helper should be assigned a soecific helper.
I would more like such a club to just add another level to the ntell helpers.
Showing that you're awake and interested in spending your time with a newbie, assisting with whatever.
Introduce some RP, i would see as a sort of requirement. But not really.
I do think RP is a huge deal of what a newbie would see as something to be attracted to.

So, an upgraded pin that you can remove/wear as the current one, and then also toggle if you want it to show for ntell only or team/time.

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Kjartan
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Re: Recruitment?

Post by Kjartan » 01 Feb 2021 04:54

Total different thing which I think is so far totally missing but maybe somewhat relevant as I’m a noob and finished Tutori less than a week ago myself: I totally miss a target/ goal/ or at least some guidance. On Tutori everything was made clear very early: you have to kill the vampire. You had a mission. And It was an exciting mission - killing a vampire sounds cool and fun (for non vampires). And it was fine to do the small challenges on the way, even if they sounded a boring, because they would serve a greater purpose.

But once you leave Tutori, things get very different. You don’t have any target anymore (I am fully aware that a target might not be useful till the end - but the player is at this point not hooked yet, nor have they made their own goals yet). So you are in this huge world, you can get tasks from Carlsan, but you don’t see much purpose in doing them (cleaning jobs, with no outlook to do something more exciting - scrub dirty signs or dust orbs? If I want to clean things without having a higher purpose to do so, I can do that in my real life as well). I don't have exciting adventures in real life - but Carlsan doesn't me promise anything exciting either). I basically had no idea what I should do with the freedom of this huge new world (I did a few of Carlsan's quest, but they were so boring, that I just lost all interest in this quest line) - and why it should matter to me. If I would have had the choice I would have preferred to go back to Tutori because I had no idea what I’m supposed to do now, since there were also no obvious fitting monsters for me. On the way to the orc temple you pass a crowd of not really strong orcs, but there are so many of them that I thought this likely isn’t supposed to where I should going. And except of 4 ants or so I couldn’t even find something to kill at all without roaming too far away from where I thought I should be.

What I don’t miss as a new player: more exp or money. Maybe money would even hurt - because the lack of money is currently the only thing which keeps me going. Take this feeling of having achieved something when I finally can train a skill from me, and I wonder what I’ve achieved at all.

With exp: I don’t want things to be easier. I would like though to be able to measure my achievements better. In those regards Genesis doesn’t make it easy for me I must admit. And it results in a lot less addicting behaviour (this is a good thing in general, but likely counterproductive when it is about keeping people who might not be sold to the game yet).

If Bo wouldn’t have took me with him, I honestly would have stayed maybe an hour or two more (because I wanted to play so badly) but would have left eventually because I had no clue what I shall do in this big (and somewhat scary) new world.

Just my newbie point of view, of someone who almost would have stopped after finishing (and missing) Tutori.

Edit: sorry, I wrote it on the phone and there are so many things wrong. I’ll fix the text tomorrow on a computer.

Edit 2: regarding the Newbie team idea: in general I think it's not a necessarily bad idea. I have some mud experience, so likely a lot of the things which were familiar to me, might be something someone new to MUDs would struggle with. A newbie team for sure would also help preventing the “being lost” feeling I had experienced. But when I said earlier that it was Bo taking me on a tour that kept me in the game - it wasn’t for him having been able to show me what great adventures await me. It was more like guilt that he spent so much effort on me and me considering quitting. I mean this probably can be seen as a proof that a Newbie team might work (guilt for all the new ones! How dare they!). But the guilt part shouldn’t be the purpose of a Newbie team. Convince the player early that he really wants to stay for what the game will offer to them (I’m sure the game has things to offer - but even after almost a week I haven’t really seen them to be honest (while I really have no doubt there are enough good reasons to stay)).
Last edited by Kjartan on 01 Feb 2021 18:38, edited 1 time in total.

Dan
Wanderer
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Recruitment?

Post by Dan » 01 Feb 2021 05:25

Awesome read Kjartan, how'd you feel with the newbie dungeon ? as a not-really-a-real newbie i've seen it as a great place to make money, kill and get bigger, and progressing through a questline, that if you don't take care you outgrow and then are screwed as you're too big to be a newbie and then can't solve the last quest as when you wear the reducing size amulet you're actually suddenly unable to win at all down there.. When did you notice the quest orbs? and when did you find the other newbie quest areas in krynn, argos, palanthas, kabal,

The problem with helping newbies like Bo helped you, is that every time you help 10 newbies 8 of them are faking they are newbies wasting your time on someone who just want to conceal (s)he has big older characters, i grew weary of that after helping some and stopped doing it much.

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