Harder hits

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: Harder hits

Post by OgreToyBoy » 03 Mar 2021 12:01

Mim wrote:
03 Mar 2021 10:55
....
So far noone digged into stats.
Will DEX be more important again?
I truly hope not. :twisted:

Amberlee
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Amberlee » 03 Mar 2021 13:01

Mim wrote:
03 Mar 2021 10:55
Some intresting points and thoughts.
I bet though, that in a few weeks people might laugh at the OP and the other speculations.
And ofc there will be effects neither of us could imagine.
Block, stun, and paralys will probably be a main concern if I can join in the speculations.

So far noone digged into stats.
Will DEX be more important again?
The stat meta will be as it is I think.
They are not switching the priorities on stats, so what you want to prioritize is largely based on race.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Redblade
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Redblade » 03 Mar 2021 16:33

Mim wrote:
02 Mar 2021 12:28
DEX vs STR?
Fighting with two weapons?
Damage dealers vs tanks?
Healers?
...
Melee vs magic?
My guess:
DEX×STR will still be the same. Abilities that focus on avoiding damage instead of reducing it, that's the deal. But I doubt the stats will tip over to dex.
Dual-wield: Regarding the previous change, dual wield makes specials faster. You also get twice as many white hits too. So this seems like a decent dps boost for everyone that has some two-handed combat skill.
DPS×Tank: No clue :) We'll see. Depends on how big the white hits boost will be.
Healers: If you heal fast enough... yep. Healers could have a higher chance to survive. Makes me wonder if we'll see a large flow from melee laymans to healing magic laymans.

Melee×Magic: All in all, I think melee will feel better (personal comment: finally) after the change. However I'd guess we'll see people switch to Magic layman. I somewhat think that OCC casters that don't have a free Layman slot and don't have healing will feel the hits rain. Not that I mind :)

I view this as a step in the right direction in some areas and fear that it may be a step back in others. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

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Mim
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Mim » 03 Mar 2021 17:57

Dan wrote:
03 Mar 2021 07:53
2: if you hit harder, but also get hit so hard you can't solo, it forces you to team up, and while teaming, the usual solo grinding areas are not viable for a team, hence you move to the bigger areas - once again becoming even more in the same spots competing about the same killing areas with even more players killing everything even faster, making absolutly nothing to kill.
If teaming will grow, I suppose Minstrels with team boost to speed, might fare well.
Personally I do hope this is true. :)
Sometimes people suck. -- Cotillion
True words that.

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Zhar
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Zhar » 04 Mar 2021 05:50

Redblade wrote:
03 Mar 2021 16:33
However I'd guess we'll see people switch to Magic layman.
What do you mean switch to magic layman? If you look at the current population most of the big players are already in magic layman because, unfortunately, most melee laymans were made almost obsolete with how versatile magic ones are (basically every magic layman provides heal, haste and/or some form of defence). Melee laymans simply can't compete with that. The only advantage to melee laymans is lack of components/ease of use but that's not really a concern for people who are legend+.

In general, I think that melee laymans are much better when people are smaller but once you grow past certain point you get more benefits from the magic layman.

Just look at 2 examples:
1. Blademasters provide you with additional damage. It is noticable at lower levels but not that much when you grow bigger. Also, haste from magic layman gives you more whitehits and lets you fire your occ special more often so you get more damage with more things on top (like healing and damage mitigation).
2. Pirates have one of the best if not the best defensive special in the game. This is great when you're smaller and can avoid some blows without much effort. Once you grow bigger though with magic layman you can simply outheal the damage and get aforementioned haste, mitigation and what not on top.

Magic laymans do require preparation and components can be costly, there's also a lot of micromanagement and the need to carry a lot of stuff on your person. This makes it really hard for smaller players but easier when you're bigger (plenty of money to just buy things for example).

At least that's the current situation as I see it personally. We'll have to wait and see if anything changes in this matter in the near future.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Dan
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Dan » 04 Mar 2021 08:44

Your premise regarding outhealing the damage has one flaw: while casting you stop doing white hits, and with white hits being upped that means the effect of the white hit dps gone will be bigger, maybe tipping it back in favour of pirates.

However I agree, the current magic laymans are superior to the current melee laymans.

Layman magic doing Teleport + haste + boost stats spell + heal spell + avoidance spell > a BM hit or pirate evasion any day.

Nerull
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Nerull » 04 Mar 2021 12:24

Dan wrote:
04 Mar 2021 08:44
Your premise regarding outhealing the damage has one flaw: while casting you stop doing white hits, and with white hits being upped that means the effect of the white hit dps gone will be bigger, maybe tipping it back in favour of pirates.

However I agree, the current magic laymans are superior to the current melee laymans.

Layman magic doing Teleport + haste + boost stats spell + heal spell + avoidance spell > a BM hit or pirate evasion any day.
This depends on what is ment here. Versatility? Sure, more options, but what you might suggest here is that the combinations outstrips the melee special, which isn't necessarily true.

Example: If Pirate special yelds 10 caid, and lets say this is the cap (the number is fictional), and the combination (or single effects) also caps out at 10 caid (this is the premise - stacking means less effect on every effect), then they should hypothetically be about equal since both yelds same caid.

It is ofcourse convenient to have more options, and possibly to tailor vs different encounters in exchange for components etc and upkeep.

Sometimes, it's simply better to use a single sustained non-limited combat special for automation, as there are no upkeep or costs attached to the same net effect. Maybe the best for prolonged grinding if growth is of concern.

Amberlee
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Amberlee » 04 Mar 2021 12:56

Nerull wrote:
04 Mar 2021 12:24
Dan wrote:
04 Mar 2021 08:44
Your premise regarding outhealing the damage has one flaw: while casting you stop doing white hits, and with white hits being upped that means the effect of the white hit dps gone will be bigger, maybe tipping it back in favour of pirates.

However I agree, the current magic laymans are superior to the current melee laymans.

Layman magic doing Teleport + haste + boost stats spell + heal spell + avoidance spell > a BM hit or pirate evasion any day.
This depends on what is ment here. Versatility? Sure, more options, but what you might suggest here is that the combinations outstrips the melee special, which isn't necessarily true.

Example: If Pirate special yelds 10 caid, and lets say this is the cap (the number is fictional), and the combination (or single effects) also caps out at 10 caid (this is the premise - stacking means less effect on every effect), then they should hypothetically be about equal since both yelds same caid.

It is ofcourse convenient to have more options, and possibly to tailor vs different encounters in exchange for components etc and upkeep.

Sometimes, it's simply better to use a single sustained non-limited combat special for automation, as there are no upkeep or costs attached to the same net effect. Maybe the best for prolonged grinding if growth is of concern.
A hypothetical doesn't necessarily translate to actual in game effect though.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Redblade
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Redblade » 04 Mar 2021 13:39

Zhar wrote:
04 Mar 2021 05:50
Redblade wrote:
03 Mar 2021 16:33
However I'd guess we'll see people switch to Magic layman.
What do you mean switch to magic layman? If you look at the current population most of the big players are already in magic layman because, unfortunately, most melee laymans were made almost obsolete with how versatile magic ones are (basically every magic layman provides heal, haste and/or some form of defence). Melee laymans simply can't compete with that. The only advantage to melee laymans is lack of components/ease of use but that's not really a concern for people who are legend+.
Totally agree, what I meant, mostly, is that this will happen at smaller size. At (estimate) RH, you'll suddenly need that healing layman to get anywhere. :) Which will also make it harder to earn the coins for components. Who knows? Maybe we'll see a big increase in vet-hero sized Mishakal OOTS? ;)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Thalric
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Thalric » 04 Mar 2021 15:28

Nerull wrote:
04 Mar 2021 12:24
Dan wrote:
04 Mar 2021 08:44
Your premise regarding outhealing the damage has one flaw: while casting you stop doing white hits, and with white hits being upped that means the effect of the white hit dps gone will be bigger, maybe tipping it back in favour of pirates.

However I agree, the current magic laymans are superior to the current melee laymans.

Layman magic doing Teleport + haste + boost stats spell + heal spell + avoidance spell > a BM hit or pirate evasion any day.
This depends on what is ment here. Versatility? Sure, more options, but what you might suggest here is that the combinations outstrips the melee special, which isn't necessarily true.

Example: If Pirate special yelds 10 caid, and lets say this is the cap (the number is fictional), and the combination (or single effects) also caps out at 10 caid (this is the premise - stacking means less effect on every effect), then they should hypothetically be about equal since both yelds same caid.

It is ofcourse convenient to have more options, and possibly to tailor vs different encounters in exchange for components etc and upkeep.

Sometimes, it's simply better to use a single sustained non-limited combat special for automation, as there are no upkeep or costs attached to the same net effect. Maybe the best for prolonged grinding if growth is of concern.
I can't figure out if you're trying your best to protect your own creation, or if you simply haven't been playing for a long time and therefore have no idea that the "math" you just did is far from game mechanics.

I do wonder what a 20-30% increase in OCC special haste would translate to, if if was a feature in the OCC guild itself.
I am quite sure it would be at a higher caid cost than the current value in a layman guild.

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