Harder hits

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Targun
Adept
Posts: 107
Joined: 21 Oct 2010 01:31

Re: Harder hits

Post by Targun » 04 Mar 2021 23:18

On caid

I think it would do to keep in mind that caid - in essence - is an arbitrary number which, more or less, says the following: "If we follow these rules (that we set up for ourselves) for assessing power of "stuff", we have a decent chance of creating a good experience for the players".

And I think it is a reasonable approach (if used in this manner). Some additional metrics perhaps could be useful, but it does a fine job for its purpose and if supported by "adjusting as we learn" approach, should be sufficient.

The only caviat is; I don't believe argument "two abilities or two guilds have same caid, so they'll perform similarly" can be used. I don't even know what sophisticated mathematical apparatus you'd have to employ to get anywhere near that statement. All you can realistically say is: "people in general are content when we apply those rules".

However, it is not a matter of something being objectively quantifiable or measurable. It's a matter of whether we are happy with the results if we apply those rules. After all, how do you even begin to measure it?

To give a very simple example; lets just have a look at the very common "magic of additive modifiers and thresholds" case. Say you have 2 sets of guilds and equipment. Set1 gives you 80% of dodge, parry, amour protect, spell protect, and Set2 gives you extra 10% more.

One can think it's only 10% more, but what you get in fact is decrease of dmg taken by 50%. Depending on the situation it can mean nothing (you were already tanking it FVW) or everything. If it means you can grind an area continuously, whereas before you needed to spend 30% time for regen, it will give you flat increase of 30% of progress rate. At the same time if the initial values were respectively 30% and 40%, most likely you'd hardly notice any difference.

There are literally tens of thousands of scenarios where such things come to play, with a lot more variables and modifiers. Depending on the system the power of "sweet spots" will vary and the extent to which they exceed desired outcome will vary just as much.

So to summarize, saying several things have same caid, so they give same benefit is well... wrong. At the same time however, the great thing about Genesis is that each guild is unique, it has its own feel and place in the world. It of course also means that we have to rely on common sense and ability to remain impartial to provide good experience for the players. Something which caid - if designed well - can help a lot with.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1516
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Harder hits

Post by Amberlee » 04 Mar 2021 23:50

Yeah what Targun said.
Just look at damage absorb vs evade tanking specials.
evade tanking is vastly superior in every way, not counting Neidar cause they are just wrong in every sense of the word.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

User avatar
Arman
Wizard
Posts: 685
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Harder hits

Post by Arman » 05 Mar 2021 05:58

Amberlee wrote:
04 Mar 2021 23:50
Yeah what Targun said.
Just look at damage absorb vs evade tanking specials.
evade tanking is vastly superior in every way, not counting Neidar cause they are just wrong in every sense of the word.
Now that there is no longer a dwarven AoB who also is guild master of the Neidar, maybe that will change? ;p

In seriousness, there is a lot of truth to what Targun has said. There are a lot of nuances to how all the different specials work, with some specials valued more highly than others even though technically they are the same caid. So I think it is safe to say that from a players perspective equal caid doesn't equate to equal practical value.

For those that have played a SoHM, you can see it quite strongly in spell preference - where there is an element of free choice in what specials you can have on rotation. Some spells are never if ever used, even though they may technically provide comparable or higher combat aid than other more popular spells

Combat aid isn't arbitrary, but the way our entire combat system is set up - including skills, weapon hit/pen values, stat scaling (or lack of scaling), how armour and resistance works - is currently pretty rough, siloed and unsophisticated.

But with Carnak taking over the AoB role, I have to say I am really excited about how this is going to change. He is looking at our combat system at a very granular level and working through the true value of our combat elements, and refining/rebuilding them to be a more solid, measurable, and less arbitrary combat foundation.

The white damage changes is just the beginning. So strap yourselves in, and Amberlee stock up on your popcorn.

Celemir
Wanderer
Posts: 60
Joined: 11 Mar 2016 10:02

Re: Harder hits

Post by Celemir » 05 Mar 2021 11:37

How about making an universal standart caid system for dammage special attacks?
Then the dammage would be the same for all guilds.
you could put in options for disarm, stun or dammage, and type of guild it was, lay, warrior, ranger mm.
The only ting different could be the description if you wanted to make new ones.
You could perhaps do the same with defensive types, but I guess that would be a bit harder to make.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1516
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Harder hits

Post by Amberlee » 05 Mar 2021 12:41

Arman wrote:
05 Mar 2021 05:58
Amberlee wrote:
04 Mar 2021 23:50
Yeah what Targun said.
Just look at damage absorb vs evade tanking specials.
evade tanking is vastly superior in every way, not counting Neidar cause they are just wrong in every sense of the word.
Now that there is no longer a dwarven AoB who also is guild master of the Neidar, maybe that will change? ;p

In seriousness, there is a lot of truth to what Targun has said. There are a lot of nuances to how all the different specials work, with some specials valued more highly than others even though technically they are the same caid. So I think it is safe to say that from a players perspective equal caid doesn't equate to equal practical value.

For those that have played a SoHM, you can see it quite strongly in spell preference - where there is an element of free choice in what specials you can have on rotation. Some spells are never if ever used, even though they may technically provide comparable or higher combat aid than other more popular spells

Combat aid isn't arbitrary, but the way our entire combat system is set up - including skills, weapon hit/pen values, stat scaling (or lack of scaling), how armour and resistance works - is currently pretty rough, siloed and unsophisticated.

But with Carnak taking over the AoB role, I have to say I am really excited about how this is going to change. He is looking at our combat system at a very granular level and working through the true value of our combat elements, and refining/rebuilding them to be a more solid, measurable, and less arbitrary combat foundation.

The white damage changes is just the beginning. So strap yourselves in, and Amberlee stock up on your popcorn.
Have quite the storage of buttered popcorn!
But yes you are just confirming what we, the players, have known for ages.
Best way to see what works better and get true values is in fact see where the players drift.
Especially the bigger power players.
They will always drift to where they can maximize performance.
Even more so talk to the more experienced players about what works and what doesn't.
Recruit some to help test it.
We all want the best for the game.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

User avatar
Redblade
Adventurer
Posts: 89
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Harder hits

Post by Redblade » 05 Mar 2021 17:51

Zhar wrote:
04 Mar 2021 17:58
Redblade wrote:
04 Mar 2021 13:39
Who knows? Maybe we'll see a big increase in vet-hero sized Mishakal OOTS? ;)
I might not be totally up to date on this but don't you have to be like at least rising hero to join OOTS? Not to mention the questing you have to do to even be able to enter the area.
Well I don't believe there's a size requirement for OOTS. Certainly not RH :)
Regarding the questing, all you need to do is... [specific quest details], basically you can avoid all hard killing. Basic NPCs in the area. That is if you're a little skilled.

So I think, maybe not many new players will join OOTS right away as a top option. But a lot of alt-creating experienced players might see that the quests to enter can actually be done fairly easily solo (and come on, asking a myth to do the heavy lifting is still an option ;) ) and the guild offers some fun abilities. Either way - I am totally guessing here. I'm no wizard, my <appraise guild power> skill is low as I don't really test the power - I play what feels nice :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

User avatar
Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 1009
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Harder hits

Post by Zhar » 05 Mar 2021 17:55

Celemir wrote:
05 Mar 2021 11:37
How about making an universal standart caid system for dammage special attacks?
This is what's currently in the game. Basically, all the damaging specials are using the same standard code. All you do is adjust the caid, cooldowns and add special hit messages. There are also guidelines for guilds specifying maximum caid available to occ and layman guilds.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Celemir
Wanderer
Posts: 60
Joined: 11 Mar 2016 10:02

Re: Harder hits

Post by Celemir » 05 Mar 2021 18:39

Zhar wrote:
05 Mar 2021 17:55
Celemir wrote:
05 Mar 2021 11:37
How about making an universal standart caid system for dammage special attacks?
This is what's currently in the game. Basically, all the damaging specials are using the same standard code. All you do is adjust the caid, cooldowns and add special hit messages. There are also guidelines for guilds specifying maximum caid available to occ and layman guilds.
Hmm then all fighter/ranger guilds should all have the samme potential. I wonder why that is not the case?
Is it the ghost of old code?

User avatar
Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 1009
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Harder hits

Post by Zhar » 05 Mar 2021 21:21

Celemir wrote:
05 Mar 2021 18:39
Zhar wrote:
05 Mar 2021 17:55
Celemir wrote:
05 Mar 2021 11:37
How about making an universal standart caid system for dammage special attacks?
This is what's currently in the game. Basically, all the damaging specials are using the same standard code. All you do is adjust the caid, cooldowns and add special hit messages. There are also guidelines for guilds specifying maximum caid available to occ and layman guilds.
Hmm then all fighter/ranger guilds should all have the samme potential. I wonder why that is not the case?
Is it the ghost of old code?
Rangers in ME are still on the old code. I believe that all the other guilds were already moved to the new standardized system. You'll have to ask AoB about it.

Also, not all guilds have the same potential, different specials offer different caid, have different cooldowns and can have additional conditions (stats, experience etc.). If everyone would be the same it would be boring.

To make it easier to understand: there are limits on caid for each guild, if you have both offensive and defensive specials they both count against the limit so your offensive special will most likely never be as good as offensive special of a guild that has only that and all caid used for it.

Example:
Limit for caid in occ guilds: 10
Guild A has special attack, uses 9 caid.
Guild B has special attack and evasion, special attack uses 7 caid and evasion uses 3 caid.

So, even though Guild B uses more total caid it's offensive special will be weaker than that of Guild A.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/