Harder hits

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Nerull
Wizard
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Nerull » 04 Mar 2021 17:13

If the cap is 9 caid for a special, then combining 3 cant each yeld more that 3 caid each, of a total of 9. This is the rule.

If you suspect 9 haste caid is wastly superior to for example 9 caid melee special, feel free to address the aob and report your findings immediately so they can make global adjustments.

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Zhar
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Zhar » 04 Mar 2021 17:58

Redblade wrote:
04 Mar 2021 13:39
Who knows? Maybe we'll see a big increase in vet-hero sized Mishakal OOTS? ;)
I might not be totally up to date on this but don't you have to be like at least rising hero to join OOTS? Not to mention the questing you have to do to even be able to enter the area.
Nerull wrote:
04 Mar 2021 17:13
If the cap is 9 caid for a special, then combining 3 cant each yeld more that 3 caid each, of a total of 9. This is the rule.

If you suspect 9 haste caid is wastly superior to for example 9 caid melee special, feel free to address the aob and report your findings immediately so they can make global adjustments.
I think the concern here is that if you have say 5 caid combat special (battack) and 9 caid combat special (slash) it might still be worse than having 9 caid combat special (slash) and 5 caid haste on top of it since melee specials are additive while haste is multiplicative.

Edit: I'll let the players correct me on this one as I know there are people who've been testing this extensively and I don't pay that much attention to actual power when playing. I don't really care if killing the same mob takes me 40 or 60 seconds (all I care about is if I can kill it or not) but there are players who care a lot about maximum efficiency.

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Last edited by Zhar on 04 Mar 2021 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Nerull
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Nerull » 04 Mar 2021 18:43

Zhar wrote:
04 Mar 2021 17:58
Redblade wrote:
04 Mar 2021 13:39
Who knows? Maybe we'll see a big increase in vet-hero sized Mishakal OOTS? ;)
I might not be totally up to date on this but don't you have to be like at least rising hero to join OOTS? Not to mention the questing you have to do to even be able to enter the area.
Nerull wrote:
04 Mar 2021 17:13
If the cap is 9 caid for a special, then combining 3 cant each yeld more that 3 caid each, of a total of 9. This is the rule.

If you suspect 9 haste caid is wastly superior to for example 9 caid melee special, feel free to address the aob and report your findings immediately so they can make global adjustments.
I think the concern here is that if you have say 5 caid combat special (battack) and 9 caid combat special (slash) it might still be worse than having 9 caid combat special (slash) and 5 caid haste on top of it since melee specials are additive while haste is multiplicative.

Edit: I'll let the players correct me on this one as I know there are people who've been testing this extensively and I don't pay that much attention to actual power when playing. I don't really care if killing the same mob takes me 40 or 60 seconds (all I care about is if I can kill it or not) but there are players who care a lot about maximum efficiency.
The idea behind "caid" is that it should give about equal aid in combat. Offensive caid 'should' be atleast in the ballpark of the same efficiency when it comes to damage or dps.

Could happen ofcourse that something is off but...should be easy to test.

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Zhar
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Zhar » 04 Mar 2021 19:28

Nerull wrote:
04 Mar 2021 18:43
The idea behind "caid" is that it should give about equal aid in combat. Offensive caid 'should' be atleast in the ballpark of the same efficiency when it comes to damage or dps.

Could happen ofcourse that something is off but...should be easy to test.
I know what the idea is. Unfortunately caid currently is kind of operating in a vacuum without context for some things. I might be totally off with this but I imagine the assumptions are pretty much as follows (and I'll be using arbitrary numbers).

To get 10 caid means you do x extra whitehits per round. To do this many extra whitehits you need y haste. This way you can simply tie caid value to the amount of haste you're getting which makes for easy calculations.

However, this is in a vacuum. Only taking into account naked fighter. If we consider that this person already has a 10 caid special and we give them 10 caid haste now he gets 30 caid instead of 20 as it'll give him 10 caid in whitehits and effectively double the caid of the special.

The problem here is that melee specials are just that, you get an extra attack that does x damage. With haste it becomes tricky as it influences a lot of things. You get more whitehits, your other specials land more often, your spellcasting gets faster etc. etc. So, instead of adding something on top of your power it acts as multiplier for what you already have. While it might not make much difference in case of low power specials it makes a huge difference with high power ones.

At least that's how I see it.
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Nerull
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Nerull » 04 Mar 2021 19:59

Asked Arman, Carnak, Cotillion et al? They know a lot about this subject. Haste may be a multiplier, but not sure for example a 1.3 multiplier necessarily boost your dps more than a secondary combat special. The combat special 'could' yeld equal result, or even be better.

Interesting topic though - if i get time, maybe i will test it.

Carnak
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Carnak » 04 Mar 2021 20:29

Zhar wrote:
04 Mar 2021 17:58

I think the concern here is that if you have say 5 caid combat special (battack) and 9 caid combat special (slash) it might still be worse than having 9 caid combat special (slash) and 5 caid haste on top of it since melee specials are additive while haste is multiplicative.
On the note of haste, I wont be too detailed, but it takes into account your maximum combat efficiency and the effect of your haste ability. So if you at most can have 25 points and you use 5 points on haste, the haste is calculated to boost your remaining 20 points to equal 25.

If you have a high damage output guild, haste might be a good ability for you. If you come short on offensive output, it might not be the thing for you.

I personally do not believe that haste is overpowered, but if this is a general consensus, we can surely take a look at it.

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Zhar
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Zhar » 04 Mar 2021 20:36

I don't know if this is a consensus but there must be some reason why most big players favor magic laymans over physical ones. Is it because of haste, healing, defensive capabilities or just being able to adapt to any situation instead of being locked into a single thing is to be determined. The haste discussion is interesting none the less.
Carnak wrote:
04 Mar 2021 20:29
So if you at most can have 25 points and you use 5 points on haste, the haste is calculated to boost your remaining 20 points to equal 25.
But wouldn't that mean 5 caid haste boosts your special by 5 points in this case and also adds 5 points of caid in whitehits for a total of actually 10 caid?
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Kvator
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Kvator » 04 Mar 2021 20:56

I bet vampires will benefit from this change!

Nerull
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Nerull » 04 Mar 2021 21:00

I got the impression that haste was teh shit aswell before Cotillion et al did a correction. After that, people (atleast in warlocks) started to balance out what they favoured. Some went entirely for statbuff and no haste, and other left the guild for guilds with a single combat special for better xp/hour paired with no componentcost/upkeep.

So, can't say haste feels particulary imba either.

But, nothing wrong with doing a verification.

Nerull
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Re: Harder hits

Post by Nerull » 04 Mar 2021 21:05

Kvator wrote:
04 Mar 2021 20:56
I bet vampires will benefit from this change!
No more than kender, unless Carnak et al adds some custom logic that favour suckheads. :lol:

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