Balances, or whatever

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Thalric
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Thalric » 28 Mar 2021 16:03

For your 2 vs 2 calculation to work, you also have to factor in the various skills of said people.

2 BDA vs 2 Calians is certainly not an always-win for the Calians.
They tank suitably horrible that 2 BDA will beat one of them down, 50% of the time, before one of them dies.
Or so I believe, at least.

If you take Knights instead of Calians, I am sure you are right. Knights are quite capable on their own, and even more so when able to rescue each other. Specially when one or both of them has the chance to just gallop away and prepare for a charge.

Thalric
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Thalric » 28 Mar 2021 16:36

Kvator wrote:
28 Mar 2021 14:24
(when I see that Calians have both best offensive special and best defensive ability from DPS-guild POV and somehow they made it past balance 'sanity-check' then I think something's not working properly in that department)
Perhaps you didn't consider the fact that they more or less can't solo anything... certainly not now. They're completely relying in others to not get beat up.
Also... if they are so wonderful and mega powerful, why isn't the guild full of people who all want the awesomeness? Perhaps because the con balances the pros?

Nerull
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Nerull » 28 Mar 2021 16:41

In this example, the bda needs to provide over twice the dps of the calian phalanx to win. While they surpass the calian dps (because one is tanking), it's nowhere near twice as much. Then, we can add the tank into the picture which also diminishes the bda dps.

To distribute the incoming damage is quite potent.

And the knights-example? Agreed. Well, the only way they can beat those is with being larger, racial bonuses, better gear etc - they certainly cant challenge that on even terms without being at serious disadvantage.

Rache
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Rache » 28 Mar 2021 17:21

I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is that abilities that were handy and neat beforehand may need to be re-balanced or looked at again after the changes. But before everyone cries that they need X Y and Z ability, they come at the cost of overall combat-aid. A double-edged sword to be sure.

Nerull
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Nerull » 28 Mar 2021 17:54

Rache wrote:
28 Mar 2021 17:21
I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is that abilities that were handy and neat beforehand may need to be re-balanced or looked at again after the changes. But before everyone cries that they need X Y and Z ability, they come at the cost of overall combat-aid. A double-edged sword to be sure.
This is usually the premise, but not always a double-edged sword. :D

Dan
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 28 Mar 2021 18:00

My whole point is: when you change a game where before your specials did 50-60% of the damage, to a game where your special do 10-15% of the total damage - its a huge gamechanger - and it makes the 'extra' abilities become so much more potent and powerful.. And especially abilities like 'racehate' that doubles the output of the white damage, then it becomes just ridiculous to even try to play,. Or when your opponent bug-abuses their horse charge by rescuing someone and you as opponent get the 'He was just rescued so you cant attack him', and 'dude 2 is charging away out of reach' .. so you end up doing 0 absolutely 0 dps from your team while their team has 1 charging (incoming caid huge hit) and 1 dude who is 'immune' due to rescued whoms white hits are raining down upon you with racehate bonuses.

The field have just become so uneven right now it makes no sense to even try to play, as you'll get rolled over in less time that it took to read rache's reply on this thread - making you have to sit being super super super super attentive 100% of your playtime - making it almost like going to work.

The base calculation about CAID and whitehits is totally whacked off taken out of a blue sky, any mathmatician can see it, however melees seen an increase in their dps so they're not the one comming complaining - even tho as Hektor pointed out in another thread, the speciality of specials have gone down the drain in favour of 'white hits' that are now king and are boring as hell.

Kvator
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Kvator » 28 Mar 2021 18:31

Thalric wrote:
28 Mar 2021 16:36
Perhaps you didn't consider the fact that they more or less can't solo anything... certainly not now. They're completely relying in others to not get beat up.
Ohh I did. Poor Calian can switch his layman guild to the one that fits todays meta easily (Militia for example). And yes they rely in others to not get beat up - just like other dps guilds around do and they have by far the best tool for that (move behind) amond dps guilds of genesis.

Calia is still the best guild in their role (DPS). Luckily their role is no longer considered uber-role and is on equal terms with others roles in the game (tanks, supports).
Thalric wrote:
28 Mar 2021 16:36
Also... if they are so wonderful and mega powerful, why isn't the guild full of people who all want the awesomeness? Perhaps because the con balances the pros?
Hmm
- because their lore is boring and cringy?
- because they historically were getting ass-whooped by other guilds?
- maybe that have something to do with guild council and lack of recruitment campaign?
Last edited by Kvator on 28 Mar 2021 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

Kvator
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Kvator » 28 Mar 2021 18:32

Rache wrote:
28 Mar 2021 17:21
I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is that abilities that were handy and neat beforehand may need to be re-balanced or looked at again after the changes. But before everyone cries that they need X Y and Z ability, they come at the cost of overall combat-aid. A double-edged sword to be sure.
That's my concern. Somehow Calia can have both best melee special in the game AND best defensive ability (for DPS guild) and fit within CAID limits just fine.

Dan
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 28 Mar 2021 18:42

with specials being only 15% of the damage now, the calians swarm aint halfway as good as it used to be plus it have always felt oddly capped compared to other specials.
With the neidar racehate bonus on top of white hits, i'm pretty sure they outdps AND outtank a calian anyday you choose a racehate target, so you're wrong on that point too kvator, that white hits are the bomb now, means that tanking guilds suddenly became the dps guild at the same time, so the lesser caid in the dps special means close to 0.

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Zhar
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Zhar » 29 Mar 2021 05:49

Dan wrote:
28 Mar 2021 18:42
with specials being only 15% of the damage now, the calians swarm aint halfway as good as it used to be plus it have always felt oddly capped compared to other specials.
With the neidar racehate bonus on top of white hits, i'm pretty sure they outdps AND outtank a calian anyday you choose a racehate target, so you're wrong on that point too kvator, that white hits are the bomb now, means that tanking guilds suddenly became the dps guild at the same time, so the lesser caid in the dps special means close to 0.
Have you been teaming with Calians recently? I'm pretty sure they're still on the top end of the DPS spectrum.

While their abilities may seem capped is because of the team bonuses (the more Calians there are, the better their abilities work). Why you don't see that many Calians around is because previously the game was mostly focused on big solo grind so Calia was pretty much just a stepping stone as it was the guild you could easily and safely grow up to myth in and then leave to join your intended guild where you can run solo.

Overall it's a pretty damn good guild with damage special, evasion and move behind. Not to mention the fact that since you're not so reliant on your specials so much might actually make them more viable solo.

Speaking of global team abilities I was thinking of maybe adding 2 new stats that would grow slowly as you team. Leadership and Teamwork. They would allow the leader of the team to issue orders to the team (move to the front, move to the back etc.) and the success rate would depend on both leader's leadership stat and teamwork stat of the person being ordered. I think this would be a thematic way to add combat tactics to everyone and would promote teaming. You would also have dedicated leaders etc. as increasing those stats would be a very slow process so it would be very hard to improve both leadership and teamwork.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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