Balances, or whatever

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TripleM
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by TripleM » 29 Mar 2021 11:03

Zhar wrote:
29 Mar 2021 05:49
Dan wrote:
28 Mar 2021 18:42
with specials being only 15% of the damage now, the calians swarm aint halfway as good as it used to be plus it have always felt oddly capped compared to other specials.
With the neidar racehate bonus on top of white hits, i'm pretty sure they outdps AND outtank a calian anyday you choose a racehate target, so you're wrong on that point too kvator, that white hits are the bomb now, means that tanking guilds suddenly became the dps guild at the same time, so the lesser caid in the dps special means close to 0.
Have you been teaming with Calians recently? I'm pretty sure they're still on the top end of the DPS spectrum.

While their abilities may seem capped is because of the team bonuses (the more Calians there are, the better their abilities work). Why you don't see that many Calians around is because previously the game was mostly focused on big solo grind so Calia was pretty much just a stepping stone as it was the guild you could easily and safely grow up to myth in and then leave to join your intended guild where you can run solo.

Overall it's a pretty damn good guild with damage special, evasion and move behind. Not to mention the fact that since you're not so reliant on your specials so much might actually make them more viable solo.
I am surprised and a bit.... well disturbed that a discussion on current Balance derailled once again towards what Calians can and can not do. I think Calians clearly are not on the winning end of the stick for these changes. Some of you no doubt will put the label 'Whining Calian' on me, and if that makes you happy, by all means go ahead. The sole reason I write this post is to shed some light on how I think the changes are impacting us at this moment, since I think previous notes made some assumptions that are incorrect. I think it is too soon to draw definite conclusions on balance as Carnak is still in the process of changing things.

I will start off by saying that some historically underpowered guilds got an uptick by recent changes that was well deserved. Rangers and Secret Society for instance. Some other guilds benefitted at a rate where I'll leave it up to the AoB to decide if that is within boundaries of balance or not.

Then on Calians. Yes swarm was and is a powerful special. Yes it does better with more Calians in the team. Dan's reasoning is correct though, due to the buff on white-damage, our special damage output is now less distinctive than it used to be. So yes, we are still relevant in the DPS department, yet the spectrum narrowed in general. I think that result was intended by the changes.

Calians have always been weak solo, and rightfully so. One of the reasons I have been a Calian for 27 years is the fact that our abilities encourage having to team. Zhar's suggestion about being less reliant on specials making us more viable solo however is plain WRONG. After the changes our glaring weakness did get bigger by a large margin. Tanking solo is next to impossible even with big stats. I am going to guess that effect was intended in general, however it seems to me we got hit harder in comparison. I'll leave it up to others to decide on that when all is said and done.

Move behind is for small Calians a life-saver, but it does not always work (there are sometimes reasons, if you want to find out - by all means come join us, contrary to what is claimed here it is not hard to do). And if move behind doesnot work, we take a lot of damage fast. Move behind is of course a great ability in teams, but to call it the best defensive special in current setting is pretty much spew. And of course, it doesnot contribute anything when solo.
The general effect here is that it is very hard to take smaller Calians out to do some stuff, unless of course, we find a tank elsewhere. Taking out Followers/Trainees to practise battle-tactics is including mb is a no-no unless I do not like the Trainee involved. ;-)

As the situation currently is, yes Calians will (as Kvator suggested) have to adapt and join different layman guilds. As is being a 10-link Blademaster is utterly useless in comparison to abilities that other layman guilds offer. And when you take into account the different requirements current environment warrants and in which Calians are lacking, it makes it a no-brainer to do so. Thornlin might be a viable layman for some Calians (I cannot join them), EW and perhaps Warlocks too. I will consider my options when the dust has settled after all changes are done.

Something to consider that is not specific for Calians: it is a lot of work to get to 10-link Blademasters. If one were to break ones chain, it basicly means you will never regain it to that level. I believe the ogres have a mechanism where you continue where you left if you rejoin them. I'd argue there might be some other guilds where that same mechanism should be applied, Blademasters being one of them.

Kvator
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Kvator » 29 Mar 2021 12:51

TripleM wrote:
29 Mar 2021 11:03
Move behind is for small Calians a life-saver, but it does not always work (there are sometimes reasons, if you want to find out - by all means come join us, contrary to what is claimed here it is not hard to do). And if move behind doesnot work, we take a lot of damage fast. Move behind is of course a great ability in teams, but to call it the best defensive special in current setting is pretty much spew. And of course, it doesnot contribute anything when solo.
Just to clarify things - I never called move behind 'best defensive special' I called it 'best defensive special FOR DPS GUILD'.

Compare Calians with Archers (I think the most similar guild that totally suck solo* and rock dps-wise from backline). Move behind is like 10 times more useful for this type of guild than evasion offered by archers(especially with a lot of high end mobs like ttrolls or newly openeded thanar dudes).

* - there's option for some hide/sneak bouncing that's pretty neat for pvp/eq hunting but totally useless for ur standard daily grind.

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Arman
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Arman » 29 Mar 2021 12:55

TripleM wrote:
29 Mar 2021 11:03
Something to consider that is not specific for Calians: it is a lot of work to get to 10-link Blademasters. If one were to break ones chain, it basicly means you will never regain it to that level. I believe the ogres have a mechanism where you continue where you left if you rejoin them. I'd argue there might be some other guilds where that same mechanism should be applied, Blademasters being one of them.
That is something i've pondered on on a number of occasions. The effort required to get to 10 links is incredibly difficult. This was put in place a while back due to people grinding up to 10 links super fast by gaming death recovery. That is no longer possible, but the question then is what is the resolution? Do we make it easier to gain the 10 links now? Or do we keep it deliberately difficult to get, but have some other solution in place?

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Zhar
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Zhar » 29 Mar 2021 14:44

Arman wrote:
29 Mar 2021 12:55
TripleM wrote:
29 Mar 2021 11:03
Something to consider that is not specific for Calians: it is a lot of work to get to 10-link Blademasters. If one were to break ones chain, it basicly means you will never regain it to that level. I believe the ogres have a mechanism where you continue where you left if you rejoin them. I'd argue there might be some other guilds where that same mechanism should be applied, Blademasters being one of them.
That is something i've pondered on on a number of occasions. The effort required to get to 10 links is incredibly difficult. This was put in place a while back due to people grinding up to 10 links super fast by gaming death recovery. That is no longer possible, but the question then is what is the resolution? Do we make it easier to gain the 10 links now? Or do we keep it deliberately difficult to get, but have some other solution in place?
I think what MMM meant was to not lose the links if you decide to try out something else and then re-join the blademasters. So, once you've attained the coveted 10-link status you'll always have it.

We could definitely try it out, even if temporarily so people could experiment a bit while the changes are ongoing so that they can either decide to leave BM for some other layman or return to BM without the need to grind the links again when the dust settles and they decide it's the option they want.

I suspect there's a lot of people out there who feel trapped and stuck with BM considering the enormous effort required to reach the final link. This makes you stick with the guild even if you see better options out there.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

TripleM
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by TripleM » 29 Mar 2021 17:36

Zhar wrote:
29 Mar 2021 14:44
I think what MMM meant was to not lose the links if you decide to try out something else and then re-join the blademasters. So, once you've attained the coveted 10-link status you'll always have it.
(...)
I suspect there's a lot of people out there who feel trapped and stuck with BM considering the enormous effort required to reach the final link. This makes you stick with the guild even if you see better options out there.
In short 'Yes.' As things currently are, leaving the Blademasters once you attained the coveted 10th link, means your mortal-size is substantial (if you are not on recovery) and you spent quite some time in the guild. If you at a point in time would want to do it again starting from that size, it will be next to impossible to attain. So yes, in the current system I think the most fair solution would be that if one were to rejoin them, the original effort you put in still counts.

Would that solve the entire situation? I think not. People die down to redistribute stats, and so they can switch from casting to melee, or fully utilize the statdistribution from one race to another when you switch races. Basically recovery helps you do that within an amount of time, that still is substantial – but doable. In my opinion that is more or less stating ‘if you ever put in the effort to reach a certain mortal-size, we still allow you to switch paths and enjoy the game in a different setup’. In that sense, I think that by excluding guildstats, Blademasters were more or less ruled out as a layman option for ‘big’ people who do this. I understand why it was done, but it more or less resulted in from going to ‘We do not wish people to abuse dying down to get an ability fast that one should attain over putting in a long period of work’ to ‘We rule out that ability for people who want to join late in their career at all’.

However IMHO if the new normal in the combatsystem is to hold up balance-wise, you will see less and less Blademasters in general. This discussion will become moot since no one will consider to go back after they left, so a solution would not be required. I do not think it has to do with me being a Calian, so I will elaborate:

1) The need for a layman damage-special in general became a lot less due to the damage white-hits do now.
2) To reach the fullest potential of its special-damage output, it takes a long time and effort, so until that point you’ll have to do with less.
3) Even at its fullest potential, it now might not even measure up to an increase in white damage by an ability that boosts haste or strength, let alone other options/abilities that some layman-guilds offer in addition to that.

On top of that for Calians (see previous note) the math is even easier: the need for other abilities is now more substantial than the need for damage from ones layman. So yes I, and I suspect most Blademasters, probably feel like it is better to switch layman guilds under current circumstances. The main reason not to, is to not having to kick yourself in the head if future developments were to make Blademasters viable again, since there would not be a way back.

Carnak
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Carnak » 29 Mar 2021 22:06

Arman wrote:
26 Mar 2021 01:16
Thalric wrote:
25 Mar 2021 07:46
So for some time yet, we won't be seeing the final result?
Since it takes time to fix it all..?

Thank you for the explanation.
The recode of the magic system was started a while back.. so i don't expect that to take long - depending on testing.
We have indeed come a long way on the caster system, and it shouldn't be very far off at all. Unfortunately, COVID has struck the Carnak household and I am presently out of commission (and have been for a while). I felt that I should post a note so that players know that this is still the _top_ priority for me. When I manage to recover I will go straight back to the dungeon to slave away on the new spell system. ;)

Thalric
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Thalric » 29 Mar 2021 23:05

Sorry to hear it!!
Get well soon. :)

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Arman
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Arman » 30 Mar 2021 03:45

The Blademasters topic is a bit of a derail, and it is probably worthy of its own thread.

But a few points... I am less in favour of players maintaining their 10 links if they leave. Guild loyalty should be rewarded over guild-hopping. So I think the solution may need to be something else than a permanent chain status for those who leave. But am open to discuss options.

Also I wouldn't jump the gun on the value of certain guilds over others until the dust settles on all the balance changes. One thing that has been raised by Carnak as an area that will be focused on will be those guilds that are focused compared to those that are versatile. There is definite benefit to the latter that needs to be taken into account in balance considerations. I can't see the Blademasters losing out when these considerations are made.

Budwise
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Budwise » 30 Mar 2021 09:33

Is it that hard to get 10 links tho? Sure, the time to jump from 9 to 10 was
measured in a year(or couple of years) if memory serves. But I'm not a triggerhead supergrinder either. ;)
And the previous jumps were hours, days, weeks, months, making 9 links fairly easy.
Keeping them would be nice. Maybe make the chain ornamental,
when leaving the guild and have it reactivate if rejoining?
Not sure I want to leave though, unless battack now is even worse than before.
There is more to the game than dps.

Also, Kvator, I'm not "borrowing" you any more stuff. So there. :P
You sound a bit like someone else ragging on Calia all the time.
As in very much living in the past regarding recruitment and council.
(But we can agree that those journals suck. Been wanting to rewrite them
since forever, but my request fell on deaf ears.)

Anyway the Council changes a bit these days according to the wishes
of the members of Calia. I was on it, but may not be atm. due to taking time off
till changes settle down. MMM is on. Seems like a nice guy to me. And "name I should
remember but which eludes me because I'm old and forgetful" has been great with
recruiting and helping out our applicants. As has many other in the guild.

The recruiting part is another place where your info may be a bit outdated.
I did a rework of our procedures with the blessing of our Council
which means it is a lot easier and faster to join these days.
Put your back into it and it takes a couple of weeks while hopefully still letting you learn the ropes
and story etc. Would have to ask the new members if that's the case, but certainly the intention.
We don't spam the boards with recruitment posters, so maybe that is what you are missing?
However it is fairly straightforward to come to Krom and join up, thus beginning your life in Calia.

Also nice to hear we are OP. Haven't really noticed that much in all my years in Calia.
Maybe when we had maul (the special) that worked for the tank. Or when we could spiral
mb without delay, Sadly both were taken away quite fast by nasty, skulking wizards. :lol:
The swarm is purely defensive as in only works behind a tank. It seems like our ability
to tank and solo has been even further diminished and it wasn't all that hot to begin with.
Any bonus we get for numbers only work in all-Calian teams AFAIK which leads us
back to our stellar abilities as tanks.

Just my 2 cc. Get well soon, Carnak. That takes priority over a silly game. :-)

Cheers
Bud the Restricted One

Greneth
Wizard
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Greneth » 30 Mar 2021 11:32

Where these Calian rants come from when the guilds been dead for quite some time I have no idea. They had a resurgence once or twice since 2008 and were beaten black and blue yet people still shout about how great they are.

I don't think people realize when they look over their fence at the Calians green grass just what it means exactly to "Not be able to solo anything". That means no solo questing, no quick run through a camp because you have work in 30 minutes, no slowing moving room to room because you're at work now. Every time you get ready to do anything you need to be sure a friend is awake and just because a good-aligned character is awake doesn't mean you like them.

Prior to these changes, I could agree with some of the naysayers about "certain" aspects. However, with the changes in place, they really cannot solo anything, blademasters or not. I think the tradeoff is very fair considering and if you were to give a bunch of guilds similar abilities you would kill the already struggling guild. And not because of your personal views on Calia or how its guilds are ran but because of the glaring fact that they MUST be in a team.

That being said I do understand the value of the ability and think the AA really needs to be updated. Just a simple rotation doesn't make sense on a tank guild. They should have a rescue ability, but you could call it taunt. Where they shout a war cry or something of the sort and all enemies attack them.

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