Balances, or whatever

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Dhez
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dhez » 30 Mar 2021 16:21

Dan wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:42
The I-WIN: block, immune to damage horsecharge, rescue dealing the damage out on more targets. 3 abilities that each on its own owns our dragonfear.
The changes was rolled out sunday 13,march, your treaty of the whatever lance was launched publically 17. march 4 days after you found out you were now in godmode. Since then we've been engaged in odd places like haradrim camp (wtf?) and other odd places in middle earth where you have taken on the task of defending each and all npcs.

So if your alliance was there beforehand, it was a secret alliance up until 17. march.
I'd be amazed if the guilds involved managed to test the changes, realize they come out winning, and then form an alliance all in three days, then publish it on the fourth.
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Zhar
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Zhar » 30 Mar 2021 16:34

Dan wrote:
30 Mar 2021 14:24
When it takes 6 seconds to bring a top 15 myth in tank gear to agony by 3 white hits - one of them being from a neidar with racehate bonus + battlerager bonus + weapon bonus that probably could 1 hit kill a myth with some luck - its hard to keep the 'all is fine' attitude. The racehate bonus have to go on these new hits, simple as that, it cant be true that a fight is over before you can spell 'letmeescape'... 2-3 months to recover after a 6 second fight is simply retarded.
AFAIK racehate bonus only applies to the special, not normal whitehits. I believe Arman can be more specific here as he used to be responsible for NC for a long time (and probably still is).
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Rincon
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Rincon » 30 Mar 2021 19:47

AFAIK racehate bonus only applies to the special, not normal whitehits. I believe Arman can be more specific here as he used to be responsible for NC for a long time (and probably still is).
Revealing guild abilities on public forum is not cool.

tor
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by tor » 30 Mar 2021 20:18

Dan wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:42
The I-WIN: block, immune to damage horsecharge, rescue dealing the damage out on more targets. 3 abilities that each on its own owns our dragonfear.
The changes was rolled out sunday 13,march, your treaty of the whatever lance was launched publically 17. march 4 days after you found out you were now in godmode. Since then we've been engaged in odd places like haradrim camp (wtf?) and other odd places in middle earth where you have taken on the task of defending each and all npcs.

So if your alliance was there beforehand, it was a secret alliance up until 17. march.
Will attempt to be businesslike in my responses, but cannot let these uneducated claims go unanswered.

1. The treaty was discussed long before any of us knew what the changes were. The terms of the Treaty were initially drawn up on February 21. The Treaty of the Mithril Lance was created in direct response to member guilds being killed outside of their homelands. Looks like it's working. Good. If you're upset, make your own and do the same.

2. BDA was the aggressor in the Haradrim camp, so you're flat-out wrong about that.

3. Wrong again. We don't defend, as you've claimed, any and all npcs. There are very specific terms in the treaty. It is a defensive document and applies only to the areas already protected by the guilds involved that have been protected for years (and Knights just dropped one of them from the list, Kalaman).

4. Wrong, yet again! Neidar racial hatred does not apply to white hits. DS aside, why would a tank guild that largely uses a 1H + Shield setup benefit from a change buffing white hits and dual wielding (a skill we don't have)? We get 1/2 the white hits, and take more damage...

All of this being said: I 100% agree with Nerull that another evil guild needs a tank rotator ability. It is my understanding that there are 3 (3.5?) good guilds that have some form of a tank rotator, and 1 evil guild. It is important however, to zoom out and look at the unique traits among good guilds and the unique traits among evil guilds as a whole, as Genesis is more of a rock-paper-scissors balanced game rather than a 1:1 good to evil balanced game. If considering adding additional tankrotating abilities to evil guilds, ask yourself, are there abilities exclusive to evil guilds that aren't reflected in the same quantities on the good side? It is a genuine question - I admit I am not the most educated about every guilds' catalogue of abilities. But I suspect my point here is a good one.

No comment on the horse charge thing you mentioned. If there are exploits built into guild abilities that are not working as intended, they should be fixed. Such as racial mounts that are endlessly resummonable so that one never runs out of stamina on the warplains.

I also think block needs a look if it truly can last for 30-40 seconds or more against a large myth.

I want what's good for game balance, and that includes wishing that there were simply *more evil players* right now to balance the scales. I will call out your misinformation, though, Dan.

Kvator
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Kvator » 30 Mar 2021 20:52

tor wrote:
30 Mar 2021 20:18
4. Wrong, yet again! Neidar racial hatred does not apply to white hits. DS aside, why would a tank guild that largely uses a 1H + Shield setup benefit from a change buffing white hits and dual wielding (a skill we don't have)? We get 1/2 the white hits, and take more damage...
actually you are wrong in this part :)

- even with sup guru in two handed combat you don't have twice as many white hits (it's more like 1,5 multiplier)
- guilds with weaker specials profited from the change because damage gap between them and DPS guilds got smaller (actually 'standard' Neidars gained from the change, while DS lost cause now regeneartion-based grind is to bothersome/riksy when before the change it was super viable option)

as for racehate and white hits issue maybe Dan just mistaken weapon-feature with guild-feature (nevertheless white hits mulipliers are problematic atm)

tor
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by tor » 30 Mar 2021 21:11

Kvator wrote:
30 Mar 2021 20:52
tor wrote:
30 Mar 2021 20:18
4. Wrong, yet again! Neidar racial hatred does not apply to white hits. DS aside, why would a tank guild that largely uses a 1H + Shield setup benefit from a change buffing white hits and dual wielding (a skill we don't have)? We get 1/2 the white hits, and take more damage...
actually you are wrong in this part :)

- even with sup guru in two handed combat you don't have twice as many white hits (it's more like 1,5 multiplier)
- guilds with weaker specials profited from the change because damage gap between them and DPS guilds got smaller (actually 'standard' Neidars gained from the change, while DS lost cause now regeneartion-based grind is to bothersome/riksy when before the change it was super viable option)

as for racehate and white hits issue maybe Dan just mistaken weapon-feature with guild-feature (nevertheless white hits mulipliers are problematic atm)
Well, I'm actually not wrong about racial hatred.

Second part is debatable...not sure how Tor, who has a build that deals the fewest white hits possible in all the melee guilds on the donut, is benefited by a boost to white hit damage. I certainly tank considerably worse than I did before the changes. Which is fine, because everyone tanks worse now, RIGHT? *stares at Kenders dodging everything*

As far as soloing goes, regular Neidar is still slow and steady, as before. Seems I kill stuff roughly 15% faster, and need to stop to heal roughly 15% more often. Is the bar for "gaining from the change", merely not being nerfed by the change? If so, maybe you're right. Regular Neidar feels about the same as it did pre-changes.

Agreed that DS need to be rebalanced in light of new changes. But, important to remember that they are glass cannon DPS masters, and should not be considered masters of soloing.

Kvator
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Kvator » 30 Mar 2021 21:44

tor wrote:
30 Mar 2021 21:11
Well, I'm actually not wrong about racial hatred.

Second part is debatable...not sure how Tor, who has a build that deals the fewest white hits possible in all the melee guilds on the donut, is benefited by a boost to white hit damage. I certainly tank considerably worse than I did before the changes. Which is fine, because everyone tanks worse now, RIGHT? *stares at Kenders dodging everything*
What do you mean by 'build that deals the fewest white hits possible in all the melee guilds on the donut'? (while having the luxury of sup guru weapon - something not all 'melee guilds' have)?

Kenders also tanks worse than before -> everyone tanks worse than before, but ofc due to having ANY dmg nowadays I can do stuff way more efficiently if:

- I manage my heals properly (in-combat solo healing took a hit, because it cancels white hits), so semi-afk solo-grinding is a no no (before I could just set my healing tick, enter location and switch screen for 5 mins)
- I am fighting undeads (cause 'white hit multipliers!) - but that was the case before as well (but now this point is less 'critical' luckily)
- I am fine with any dc occuring to me being kind of 'death sentence' nowadays (I can't have panic set higher than barely alive)

Of course with proper DPS on my back (when I can just heal as much as I want not worrying bout team dps) it's whole different story (dunno if that's the case for Neidars cause your tanking is not based on mix of dodges and heals) - but as I wrote before the game meta shifted towards 'teaming'.

Nerull
Wizard
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Nerull » 31 Mar 2021 01:37

tor wrote:
30 Mar 2021 20:18
Dan wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:42
The I-WIN: block, immune to damage horsecharge, rescue dealing the damage out on more targets. 3 abilities that each on its own owns our dragonfear.
The changes was rolled out sunday 13,march, your treaty of the whatever lance was launched publically 17. march 4 days after you found out you were now in godmode. Since then we've been engaged in odd places like haradrim camp (wtf?) and other odd places in middle earth where you have taken on the task of defending each and all npcs.

So if your alliance was there beforehand, it was a secret alliance up until 17. march.
All of this being said: I 100% agree with Nerull that another evil guild needs a tank rotator ability. It is my understanding that there are 3 (3.5?) good guilds that have some form of a tank rotator, and 1 evil guild. It is important however, to zoom out and look at the unique traits among good guilds and the unique traits among evil guilds as a whole, as Genesis is more of a rock-paper-scissors balanced game rather than a 1:1 good to evil balanced game. If considering adding additional tankrotating abilities to evil guilds, ask yourself, are there abilities exclusive to evil guilds that aren't reflected in the same quantities on the good side? It is a genuine question - I admit I am not the most educated about every guilds' catalogue of abilities. But I suspect my point here is a good one.

I want what's good for game balance, and that includes wishing that there were simply *more evil players* right now to balance the scales. I will call out your misinformation, though, Dan.
Well, 3+ for sure vs 1. I won't reveal the exact numbers, but it's abudant. These abilities was added or coded when the guilds were formed, either possibly or unrelated to the fact that other good aligned guilds had access to rotators too. It happens. The single evil rotator added to evils was added later, as an attempt to even the scales slightly, but might have reversed it slightly (tanks soaks damage, not fleeing from it) to be as useful as it could've been.

There aren't many exclusive evil abilities that isn't reflected on the goodie side - there are more good-aligned guilds with access to way more abilities overall, and some of them doesn't even exist in any form on the evil side. Remember, evil only have AA and DA's as evil figther melee options, vs Calians, Neidars, Rangers, Knights (Kenders and Rangers are probably rogues), so the disparity alone of these options suggests that there are more abilities on the side that has most guilds in x category. More abilities doesn't necessarily mean better, or more powerful though, which is important to add. Some are fluff or utilities etc. But, evil guilds are fewer, with smaller "options/guildspeccs", and therefore likely less actions or commands.

Rock-scissor-paper model, or aka asymmetric gamebalance is cool, but also harder to balance. Currently, there are some setups that there exist no counter against (on equal terms), that means, no rock for the scissor etc. Though, this will, I believe, be addressed eventually. a lot will probably change in the upcoming weeks or months, but time will tell. :)

Thoru
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Thoru » 31 Mar 2021 02:34

I might as well chime in here. There are many and various complaints about balance, either occupational or layman being thrown about, most of which I cannot comment on since I don’t have experience. I will leave that to them as it is their right to make comments on the guilds they are involved in.

What I can comment on, is my experience. Knights don’t feel over-powered. Block hasn’t been a thing since Ogre-Stomp reigned supreme and Wizards mitigated it. Charge is ridiculously easy to counter, unless you want to face-tank every PvP enemy (then by all means take the charge). Anybody worth their salt will know how to easily negate charge and turn it to their advantage. If there is a bug, I hope AoP addresses it. But I can tell you, myself and others have tested Charge just about every which way possible.

Every Knight, from top to bottom, is much more squishy than they were before the changes. Sure, we do more damage, but so does everyone else. Rescue has always been good, it is the one ability that makes Knights, well Knights. Is it better now? PvE wise I would say no, we have always used it to rotate and spread around the pain. PvP wise, yes, it is better, the Meta has changed. But it always has been good. We can force whoever it is to target one or force multiple to target us, if there is more than one of us. When you combine that with size and teams of 3-8, it is going to hurt.

Here is the kicker, and where the evils are feeling the pinch, we got bigger. We got more members. We got more active. We made Alliances. We now are out to get you in teams. <gasp> yes teams, of decently sized people. The things that Wizards called for. The things that we knew. Of course you are going to get your proverbial butt handed to you against two Knights and a Neidar. But guess what, the actions of Evils drove the actions of Goodies. Like Tor said, respond in your own way. Stop complaining out of game. Hell, the head Wizard gave a clarion call to the biggest player of the game, that happens to be evil and leads an entire Guild, in his State of the Donut address this year. Is it surprising that Goodies came together? And to those complaining about the Treaty, you know just as well as we do that you wouldn’t have been attacked if you didn’t start it. Words and telling you to leave are much different than attacking on sight. You always have a choice. Sorry you chose poorly.

To the changes, as I have said before, I think they are good for the game overall. Teaming is encouraged, not very many characters, if any, can face tank everything. I do have a fear though. Magic was OP for a long time, melee just got a buff, magic is on the board to be re-done. Damage laymans as well. When it’s all said and done I would bet good money we are right back where we started. Rock/Paper/Scissors will always be fingers on a hand, no matter how much you dress it up.

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Cherek
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Cherek » 31 Mar 2021 12:56

Thoru wrote:
31 Mar 2021 02:34
Hell, the head Wizard gave a clarion call to the biggest player of the game, that happens to be evil and leads an entire Guild, in his State of the Donut address this year. Is it surprising that Goodies came together?
I don't plan on getting involved in this... what did Thalric call it? Mudfight? However, I feel I do need to address the above statement, since it seems like you misunderstood the joke in my state of the donut post.

This is what I wrote:

Code: Select all

|  Well, as most of you know, since we're a volunteer workforce, it's        |
|  always dangerous to make promises, so I am not going to do that.          |
|  However, I am going to make some educated GUESSES for 2021:               |
|                                                                            |
|  - We're going to get a new magic system that will be more balanced        |
|    and more fun for everyone.                                              |
|                                                                            |
|  - We're going to have much more balanced races in Genesis before          |
|    2021 ends.                                                              |
|                                                                            |
|  - The Bloodsea will expand.                                               |
|                                                                            |
|  - Faerun will become bigger.                                              |
|                                                                            |
|  - Genesis will get a Patreon page, and the donated money will be used     |
|    for paid promotional ads.                                               |
|                                                                            |
|  - There will be more new players created during this year compared to     |
|    last year.                                                              |
|                                                                            |
|  - We're going to get more new wizards during 2021 than we got during      |
|    2020.                                                                   |
|                                                                            |
|  - There will be at least four events.                                     |
|                                                                            |
|  - At least one new guild will open.                                       |
|                                                                            |
|  - Cassius will stop idling and start killing people again.                |
|                                                                            |
|  Now, like I said, it's possible none of these things happens, but those   |
|  are my predictions. We'll find out in about 11 months if I was right      |
|  or wrong!       
I made a bunch of guesses, and ended with what I thought was simply a fun jab at Cassius, since he tends to kill players on a regular basis, and was at the time mainly idling in the Sparkle church. It was absolutely not some kind of "call to action" for Cassius, and I really hope you did not actually use this as a reason for your alliance and agression against the DA's. I have no issue with people making alliances or fighting each other, but do so based on the actual actions of other players, not based on a joke a wizard posted. I really hope most people understood it was jokingly written?

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