Balances, or whatever

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Dan
Wanderer
Posts: 66
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 05 Apr 2021 15:03

The point is zhar: the specials doesnt matter, they're only about 15% of the damage now, with white hits being king.

So no matter which guild you choose, you have some emote being slightly different that to a small amount of damage, but most of your damage will come from your white hits - so the game have defacto lost its special damage charm that it have had for 30 years, where you feared a 10 BM link hitting you for 1 collosal hit, where now, you're dead way before that hit goes thru to white hits.

Look at where people are going: mercs, knights, pirates, militia , kenders they either have the highest amount of skills, or the most amount of non-combat/defensive extra abilities that now are the building stone on top of dps.

Archie
Beginner
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 08:19

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Archie » 05 Apr 2021 16:31

Dan wrote:
05 Apr 2021 15:03
The point is zhar: the specials doesnt matter, they're only about 15% of the damage now, with white hits being king.

So no matter which guild you choose, you have some emote being slightly different that to a small amount of damage, but most of your damage will come from your white hits - so the game have defacto lost its special damage charm that it have had for 30 years, where you feared a 10 BM link hitting you for 1 collosal hit, where now, you're dead way before that hit goes thru to white hits.

Look at where people are going: mercs, knights, pirates, militia , kenders they either have the highest amount of skills, or the most amount of non-combat/defensive extra abilities that now are the building stone on top of dps.
15% seems pretty specific (not saying it is wrong, just specific).

I assume tests have been done in combat versus the same foe over an extensive period of time to try out white hit combat only versus with specials?
I also assume different guilds pay different guild tax for specials, so which guild has that 15% of the damage?

I too agree that with the white hits being more powerful now, guild specials (especially the ones that add additional damage) are much "worse" than before in terms of efficiency. I hope the wizards (if needed) will take a look at this in contrast to such things as evading hits and healing to ensure the proper guild tax is being applied.

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 645
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Kvator » 05 Apr 2021 17:08

Dan wrote:
05 Apr 2021 15:03
Look at where people are going (...) kenders
Exactly! PLEASE STOP THE INFLUX! This guild can't support them all!!!

oh wait:

There are currently 2 Kender in the game.
Kvator Elderdrake, the Irrepressible Rambler.
Baz Butterberry, the Irrepressible Rambler.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 700
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Arman » 06 Apr 2021 02:35

Archie wrote:
05 Apr 2021 16:31
Dan wrote:
05 Apr 2021 15:03
The point is zhar: the specials doesnt matter, they're only about 15% of the damage now, with white hits being king.

So no matter which guild you choose, you have some emote being slightly different that to a small amount of damage, but most of your damage will come from your white hits - so the game have defacto lost its special damage charm that it have had for 30 years, where you feared a 10 BM link hitting you for 1 collosal hit, where now, you're dead way before that hit goes thru to white hits.

Look at where people are going: mercs, knights, pirates, militia , kenders they either have the highest amount of skills, or the most amount of non-combat/defensive extra abilities that now are the building stone on top of dps.
15% seems pretty specific (not saying it is wrong, just specific).

I assume tests have been done in combat versus the same foe over an extensive period of time to try out white hit combat only versus with specials?
I also assume different guilds pay different guild tax for specials, so which guild has that 15% of the damage?

I too agree that with the white hits being more powerful now, guild specials (especially the ones that add additional damage) are much "worse" than before in terms of efficiency. I hope the wizards (if needed) will take a look at this in contrast to such things as evading hits and healing to ensure the proper guild tax is being applied.
At a global level 15% damage from specials is wrong. And focusing on damage as a measure of global special impact is confusing the benefit of specials in combat... as specials provide combat benefits beyond just direct damage. Specials for some guilds like DAs and knights provide a lot more than 15% total aid in combat through damage, while rangers specials provide 0% additional damage.

Having said that, I think the point Dan was making was that he feels something has been lost by having specials providing only ~two-thirds of total combat aid while white damage provides a third. Which for the record is not a new formula... that has been one that has been used as the basis for developing specials for decades. It just hasn't been applied properly for damage specials. Which is why guilds with a focus beyond just damage are going through a renaissance.

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Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 1027
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Zhar » 06 Apr 2021 03:13

I don't know where the 15% comes from. Specials still contribute quite a bit of damage (sometimes 100% of your damage, depending on the weapons you're using and foes you're fighting). Sure, regular hits got stronger so overall special damage output seems lower (it's not, it just isn't overwhelming any more) but it's still pretty significant.

I think to really notice the difference you'd have to try out different guilds and setups yourself. There's quite a difference in playstyle now based on your weapon(s) of choice and guild composition, which is a very nice change in my opinion (I will echo Kvator here that it's nice to have something other than raw damage output be important). If you do the testing you'll see that more playstyles are viable now and you have an actual choice in which of them you want to adopt. Even when talking just damage there are some really interesting nuances now, where you're not necessarily only looking at just the damage output but also how it's being applied.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Dan
Wanderer
Posts: 66
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 06 Apr 2021 05:08

If You believe two third comes from the DA special..... it does not, I do most of my damage from the white hits now, not from the slash, you should try test it.

And that I believe is the whole issue - you wizzes sees one thing, the players sees another - some just welcome the change, while I find it have detracted so much from the game that damage special is close to worthless. The Ranger example is a good one also, as now their combat ability have risen far beyond what a BDA can do, the ability to remove the opponents weapon when 70-85% of their damage comes from the white hits from those weapons is immense. You truly need to go look up your numbers again, as i'm sure your formula has some gaps that you just don't see!

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 700
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Arman » 06 Apr 2021 05:34

Dan wrote:
06 Apr 2021 05:08
If You believe two third comes from the DA special..... it does not, I do most of my damage from the white hits now, not from the slash, you should try test it.

And that I believe is the whole issue - you wizzes sees one thing, the players sees another - some just welcome the change, while I find it have detracted so much from the game that damage special is close to worthless. The Ranger example is a good one also, as now their combat ability have risen far beyond what a BDA can do, the ability to remove the opponents weapon when 70-85% of their damage comes from the white hits from those weapons is immense. You truly need to go look up your numbers again, as i'm sure your formula has some gaps that you just don't see!
You are misinterpreting again. I said around one third of combat caid comes from white hits. The other two thirds comes from specials... you are making an assumption that all of your combat aid from your occupational guild and layman guild sits in slash... which is not the case.

Dan
Wanderer
Posts: 66
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 06 Apr 2021 05:47

I'm still claiming that if thats what you believe is the current balance, you should try it out, because thats not how it feels like, it feels like blademaster attack or slashes are a joke compared to the white hits, most often a slash do less than 1 white hit.
I often see a slash take 1 level, then 2 white hits instant kill the mob,. so something IS OFF, but I can understand on Zhar that off is good, it makes for more diversity altho not in fighting guilds as in 1 year all will have left dps guilds and joined more versatile ones with utilities..

Archie
Beginner
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 08:19

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Archie » 06 Apr 2021 11:36

Dan wrote:
06 Apr 2021 05:47
I'm still claiming that if thats what you believe is the current balance, you should try it out, because thats not how it feels like, it feels like blademaster attack or slashes are a joke compared to the white hits, most often a slash do less than 1 white hit.
Feelings and fact are two different things and here is where I will disagree with you on this topic. The only way to ultimately test what you say is to remove the chance of misses completely and ensure that all monsters you test against are exactly the same every time.

As players we cannot do that.

I am guessing here but there is always a chance we miss an attack completely. Over time (1000 battles) this should of course provide less variance and even itself out versus a smaller test period (lets say 50 battles). But unless we spend that time against the same sized enemy, we don't have good enough data to make the assumption you do.

I can only hope that the wizards have done this. :)
Dan wrote:
06 Apr 2021 05:47
I often see a slash take 1 level, then 2 white hits instant kill the mob,. so something IS OFF, but I can understand on Zhar that off is good, it makes for more diversity altho not in fighting guilds as in 1 year all will have left dps guilds and joined more versatile ones with utilities..
Here I totally agree with you. Even though the effects of white hits have been incorrect in the past, and although I personally welcome this change, the danger of people leaving these DPS guilds due to the effectiveness of evading/healing abilities need to be considered and balanced up (or down) if needed.

Different abilities will still have different value to different people. I think this is perfectly fine though. As long as they are taxed correctly, at least in PVM battles it still means those who pay higher tax still grow slower. The perceived effectiveness of an ability might not really be how it actually plays out in numbers.

Zestana
Expert
Posts: 277
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 21:07

Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Zestana » 06 Apr 2021 17:12

Wiz Force proving yet again how disconnected from the actual game they are coding for. Even more so this time than ever before really. My favorite is Zhar recommending you go guildhopping to try out all the new variants even while new patches are applied everyday.... toss all roleplay out the window to figure out where you can survive now. Hint hint: Don’t waste your time on a guild with an application process, you’ll probably let be disappointed and just waste your time.

For the record, Carnak is not fixing chaos, he’s creating it. Case in point: patching things globally and dealing with the repercussions afterwards is a piss poor way of changing things.

You are not running the necessary simulations. There is zero balance currently in the game. Everything you change creates 20 more problems that are being addressed with quick fix patches instead of actually addressing the guild and the players needs in said guild. The recodes took so long because each guild was assessed differently and brought into a global balance. We waited a decade for you to finish. The moment you do (and you didn’t actually finish it.) you begin to overhaul the entire game again but this time in the most pathetic of ways.

Players will only put up with the chaos you’re causing for so long before they go seek out other options (other games.) Already your player base is dwindling. Hopefully you can stop it. But seeing as how your changes are made to affect end game content and make it harder for people to grow and go solo you’re working your way toward running off the myth population. I get it, you want more diversity, a means to close the gap from new to old. But you’re doing so at the expense of your LOYAL players who have been with you for 10+ (some of them 20+ years.)

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