Balances, or whatever

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kilane
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by kilane » 06 Apr 2021 17:36

Dan wrote: ↑06 Apr 2021 05:47
I'm still claiming that if thats what you believe is the current balance, you should try it out, because thats not how it feels like, it feels like blademaster attack or slashes are a joke compared to the white hits, most often a slash do less than 1 white hit.
Feelings and fact are two different things and here is where I will disagree with you on this topic. The only way to ultimately test what you say is to remove the chance of misses completely and ensure that all monsters you test against are exactly the same every time.

As players we cannot do that.

I am guessing here but there is always a chance we miss an attack completely. Over time (1000 battles) this should of course provide less variance and even itself out versus a smaller test period (lets say 50 battles). But unless we spend that time against the same sized enemy, we don't have good enough data to make the assumption you do.

I can only hope that the wizards have done this. :)
Dan wrote: ↑06 Apr 2021 05:47
I often see a slash take 1 level, then 2 white hits instant kill the mob,. so something IS OFF, but I can understand on Zhar that off is good, it makes for more diversity altho not in fighting guilds as in 1 year all will have left dps guilds and joined more versatile ones with utilities..
Here I totally agree with you. Even though the effects of white hits have been incorrect in the past, and although I personally welcome this change, the danger of people leaving these DPS guilds due to the effectiveness of evading/healing abilities need to be considered and balanced up (or down) if needed.

Different abilities will still have different value to different people. I think this is perfectly fine though. As long as they are taxed correctly, at least in PVM battles it still means those who pay higher tax still grow slower. The perceived effectiveness of an ability might not really be how it actually plays out in numbers.
Well I just grinded myself from adventurer to adept in the academy guild and I had maxed out all my spell skills and I had been focused on intelligence and wisdom since greenhorne as I knew I wanted to go this route. Can unfortunatly confirm that enemies died much faster when I only used my phalantas spear and skipped using spells (I used them anyway because I wanted to level my academy title) that was using the repeating spell cheiropoto, the more costly spell hydrokine also didn't seem to do more than a regular attack but both of these take longer to cast and keeps me from doing other attacks meanwhile so because of this only using regular attacks was faster.

Typically most enemies would go down for me in the time I would be able to use 2 cheiropoto and when I didn't use cheiropto the time to finish a fight was about half what it would be otherwise.

Stopped using spells in combat when I needed to heal up as I took less damage in fights.

Dan
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 06 Apr 2021 17:37

Well said Zestana, the game feels more like Gary's mud with flavour of the week he made often to his close friends so they knew where to go train skill xyz this week - back when first version of vampires were closed.

Why not jump from morgul mage to neidar to RDA thats completely normal behaviour if we were playing counterstrike, but we are not. Sadly it seems its more about playerkilling and gaining advantages than actually roleplaying the roles you have, its definatly a sad development not for the better.

Rache
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Rache » 06 Apr 2021 18:46

Dan wrote:
06 Apr 2021 17:37
Why not jump from morgul mage to neidar to RDA thats completely normal behaviour if we were playing counterstrike, but we are not. Sadly it seems its more about playerkilling and gaining advantages than actually roleplaying the roles you have, its definatly a sad development not for the better.
I'm genuinely flattered! Thank you so much! :D As you know, this is a game and when the game is no longer fun, you make changes. Sometimes, changes are short-lived due to various reasons. But trust me, honey, there was no conversation regarding switching from MM to Neidar for player-killing. It was a dramatic change, yes, and it was roleplayed well by all parties involved. Sadly, there was an unfortunate incident regarding OotS which caused me to knee-jerk leave Doomseekers.

I don't know how you have all the mental energy to spend on your tinfoil conspiracy theories, "Dan", but there's quite literally nothing to see here.

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Zhar
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Zhar » 06 Apr 2021 23:10

Zestana wrote:
06 Apr 2021 17:12
Wiz Force proving yet again how disconnected from the actual game they are coding for. Even more so this time than ever before really. My favorite is Zhar recommending you go guildhopping to try out all the new variants even while new patches are applied everyday.... toss all roleplay out the window to figure out where you can survive now. Hint hint: Don’t waste your time on a guild with an application process, you’ll probably let be disappointed and just waste your time.
To be frank, I'm more of a "weekend wizard". I mostly just play the game and put on my wizard hat on the weekends to fix some bugs or add small QOL improvements to the game etc.

By guildhopping I meant that the changing world might urge some people to shake things around with their guilds. Genesis is designed in a way that lets you switch races and guilds, one of its unique features over games where you have to live with the choices you've made at character creation forever. Why not take advantage of that?

In any case, after the changes hit what I did was gather some friends from various guilds and did A LOT of testing and trials both in PvE and PvP. We mailed our feedback to AoB which they promptly acted upon etc. It seems to me that people have a hard time adjusting to their new reality. I know it can be tough to learn that stuff that worked for 20+ years is no longer functioning the way you wanted, but I think overall the changes were positive and much needed.

The truth is, you now need a bit different approach to the game. Some areas became easier, some became harder. You definitely need different team compositions now (and running solo is much, much harder after the changes). Some things that were considered the goto optimal builds are sub-par now, while some sub-par stuff became actually usable and on par with the best of them. I find this all really encouraging, and so do others. Some of the people I tested stuff out with have switched guilds based on test results, some were happy with what they already had and some were rather displeased but decided to not change and wait for further changes to be rolled out. Sure, the current system still needs some tweaking and fine-tuning that will most likely come after the magic changes when we can see the whole picture better but it's a move in a right direction.

You call it chaos, and sure, there will be some chaos in the beginning, like with every big change, but the role of a player is to make sense of it and control this chaos as much as they can. You can't honestly expect wizards to anticipate every single possible scenario and test for it. Genesis is too big and too complex for that so all that's left is testing the most common scenarios, rolling out the changes and adjusting according to feedback (which is exactly what's happening now).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Dan
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dan » 07 Apr 2021 08:33

So basically you say to people who have liked to solo for the last 30 years: screw you, find another game or learn how to team ?

You as a wizard should know you have a command available where you can see how many people enjoy soloing,.

You as a person should know that having random bullies run amok and killing people in less than 10 seconds, whereafter they have to spend 3 months recovering, aint fun in no book or reality.

The current meta is broken, utterly and totally, and the math behind has been done totally incorrect with wrong formulas.

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Dhez
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Dhez » 07 Apr 2021 09:04

Zhar wrote:
06 Apr 2021 23:10
By guildhopping I meant that the changing world might urge some people to shake things around with their guilds. Genesis is designed in a way that lets you switch races and guilds, one of its unique features over games where you have to live with the choices you've made at character creation forever. Why not take advantage of that?
Because Genesis is a roleplaying game and there's a group of players who built their characters and personality around a specific guild with a specific theme, lore, and worldview, and who enjoy being able to approach doing the content the game has to offer from that perspective, and at the same time they want to remain competitive and able to perform. Just because the game, mechanically, makes it possible to switch races and guilds, doesn't mean that it's a valid approach to gameplay. We tend to promote the game with slogans such as "where your imagination is more important than your video card" which has to carry more meaning than just imagining yourself carrying a weapon and hitting enemies over their head.

The whole reason the game remains attractive after so much technological development is because you're able to live a story. You have a background, a history, a past, it's a cumulative experience that permeates your choices in the present. It's very hard to remain coherent if you constantly switch races and guilds. It might work for a good amount of players but not for everyone. You cannot keep a guild running steadily if the leadership changes every few months because the leaders decide their guild isn't viable, or their race (which subsequently impacts their capacity to belong to said guild) isn't optimal, and thus decide to change.

The memories created by this game are memories of people, individuals, characters that have been so well played that they've become alive in our imagination. Can we imagine an Etanukar leaving the morgul mages and playing a gladiator/pirate because it fits the current meta? Can we imagine an Emraht going Neidar because tanking builds are the best? Can we think of a Diri going ranger because their heal is spectacular? Maybe Grampal should join the Dragonarmies after unarmed combat became less than viable? I've personally been going through years of trying to reconstruct my personality after the loss of what defined my character. It's been traumatic trying to redefine myself as something so radically different. In my case, it isn't a big loss because I'm not as old, influental, or relevant to the grand scheme of things. Nevertheless, on a personal level, it is a struggle, one which I consciously accept because I enjoy the game and its people, and which is why I keep returning break after break. Not because of my power to kill a monster in 12 rather than 20 seconds, but because of the world which we have, as a community, made come alive. I return for the people, not for the mechanics, and try again and again to recreate myself to fit in it. It is exhausting.

Wizards make up the mechanics of the game, the machine, but it's players who constitute its spirit, its anima, its flair. Mechanics are important but if we only judge a game by its graphics, technical possibilities and such, then we would be judging art not by its ability to express something but by the medium through which it is expressed. We would be saying that the medium is the message. Now, I'm not sure if you're a fan of Mcluhan, but I can tell you that if the medium is the only message, then we will not be able to criticise those who opt for a medium other than this mud through which they are capable of extracting more (or simply better/more fun/more fulfilling/more entertaining) meaning.

In other words: please don't advice against that which makes this game what it is, and don't present its contrast to MMOs as a point in favor. The game should stand on its own value without need for comparisons to make it worth our while. This is highly detrimental to what makes the game enjoyable in the long term, and even if there is a great deal of players who enjoy the grind for the grind and size for size itself, consider that the RP foundations allows for that kind of gameplay without any issue whilst in contrast if we make mechanics its foundation then we do not allow for RP. See much RP in other MMOs? No, it's a constant meta and FOTM hunting where you play what's good and people make alts with 2 days of work instead of 2 years. Where names do not matter and are usually highly comical to highlight how meaningless their character's background is.

I may be part of a minority when saying this, but I much prefer to see a Genesis where people play a merc/pirate because they want to live the fantasy of being a sellsword sailing the seas rather than "Man, the meta is skills and evasion tactics. Did you know all of that layman caid goes into evasion? It's so useful to tank with".
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Mim
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Mim » 07 Apr 2021 09:33

Dhez wrote:
07 Apr 2021 09:04
A lot of important words.
Thank you.
Best post I ever read.

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Cherek
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Re: Balances, or whatever

Post by Cherek » 07 Apr 2021 17:54

I have split this post and moved the rest to flames. If you wanna continue figthing and flaming, you know where to find it. If any non-flame posts were moved too, I apologize, but the whole thread was just a derailed flamey mess from this point onwards and it would have taken me forever to sort out all posts individually. Feel free to repost your non-flamey posts here if you want.

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