Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

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Thalric
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Thalric » 09 Apr 2021 08:56

I do wonder why, if everything was as it should be at the implementation, it was needed with a fix 2 days later.
The common board post made it clear that damage would be lowered.
So, the 2,6 times as much damage ad you say white hits do now, was not the case when things were first implemented.

Was that just an unfortunate thing that happened to those hit by it? Or was it a bug or error that wasnt supposed to have happened. In which case, not wanting to make up for harm done is bad form.

Dan
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Dan » 09 Apr 2021 11:39

It all just adds up, every decision seems to fall in a category of some players favor. Ones with close ties to administration, , I mean, it just looks fishy shady and whatever from the outside ,and everytime you once again rule in their favor it just keeps adding up.

I'm feeling - not knowing but FEELING - had it been a different wiz discussing mechanics with a different group of persons, the outcome would've been fire burn fire deletion burn burn,.. And i furthermore have a feeling (mostly because a person close to the admin persons already wrote to me on discord a year ago) that the upcoming magic changes will not be a buff, but a huge nerf, and then I know hadn't I blocked said person on discord, there would have been gloating to no end about how he had managed to swing that too.

So we're dealing with people who likes to gloat, who are empowered by the admin (by luck or fair ruling thats subjective), who likes to bully, who doesnt give a rats ass what side of a conflict they're playing on as long as it ends up being able to grief their opposition, and who have vast informations from the admin that are not available to the rest of us, and also MIGHT have power to sway the admin in a direction that will favor their characters against their opponents (magics nerf 2 next)

It only takes 2 seconds to look around and see that pure magic users have been totally abolished by these changes, and I am shocked that an admin would go this far in imbalancing the game putting forward a chaos that we havent seen in genesis ever before.

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Cherek
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Cherek » 09 Apr 2021 12:50

kelrhys wrote:
09 Apr 2021 06:55
Now that I understand your criteria for determining a restoration, I can agree that it is certainly superior for implementing consistent decisions regarding restorations than my suggestion. The only remaining issue is that it was not applied in this situation, unless I am misunderstanding something.

You determined there was an imbalance due to the changes which required disabling the stun ability: therefore the code did not work as intended. Doesn't that mean the victims should have been restored? At least one of the players did ask for a restore and was denied, thus discouraging others from asking.
I dont think that makes sense. By that logic, we should also have restored ALL players who died after the change, since we also ended up "nerfing" the white hit change? I don't t hink we can restore everyone who dies from something that we later end up changing.

By that logic, it would include anyone who dies from magic as well, since we've decided it's not working so well and we need to change it? Or anyone who ever died by the hands of members of a guild that was deemed too powerful and later nerfed?

We told you beforehand there would be a number of tweaks based on what we learned during the test, and that was one thing we learned. It has nothing at all to do with intention, or coding errors / mistakes. Which is the main critera for restorations. Yes, in hindsight it turned out to be a bad decision to not adjust movement stuns, but it was a bad _decision_, and something we learned during the live test.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying is that you feel we should restore every player who dies from anything that we later end up changing because we feel the original decision was wrong? That's very different from the current critera of coding errors and things not working as intended.

For example, there was a quest in Isengaard where you'd die if you did a mistake. Lots of players died on that quest. But it was no error or mistake, the coder intended for it to be deadly. Eventually someone decided to remove the death risk (possibly the original coder or someone else), but regardless I assume because they changed it because they felt it was a bit too harsh on the players, based on how many died on it. Should we then restore everyone who died on that quest before the change? I don't think so. It was a game design _choice_ that was later adjustmed based on feedback. It was no mistake or code error. And it's the same thing here.

Something not working as intended, which is grounds for restoration, is not the same thing as making a change to the game based on feedback and monitoring effects. The intention was for white hits to do more damage, and for moevemnt stuns to remain as they were. Based on feedback we then decided to make changes to both white hits and movement stuns. Along with a bunch of other smaller tweaks based on other feedback.

I certainly see what you mean, but I really think it's a clear difference here. You may call it a bad design decision on our side if you want, but bad design choices by a bunch of amateur game developers is not grounds for restorations. In that case there would be a lot of restorations, because wizards have been making a lot of sub-optimal game design decisions throughout the years, and I am sure we will continue to do that :)

Fairlight
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Fairlight » 09 Apr 2021 13:12

Hey! Try this out!

Teflon armour, nothing will stick!

Dan
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Dan » 09 Apr 2021 13:15

There's a slight difference with people in general who died, and the 2 who died in the VK attack.

Yes, you warned people it might be more dangerous - so they were chatting in a safe area they thought , maybe not even wanting to partake in the 'test' but still like to use genesis to play ?

Yes, you later disabled block (stomp) but yet it was used here to kill them.

Yes, the damage was far overboard, something a simple loadtest on a test server would have seen, but taking on the Q hat, maybe it was intentionally too high as I could kill npcs in 4 seconds that used to take me 30-40, it was so way overboard that if someone had just typed 'kill npc' at 100+ fantastic size into myth, one wouldve noticed 'ok, might be abit too much' , a nice convenience for the 3 who stormed the keep.

So all 3 strikes combined, makes it a special case for these 2., Especially because the two didnt seek trouble, trouble found them in a situation where normal people WOULD have restrained themselves when they realized how overboard the dps was (which the 3 perfectly well knew) heck, i ended up logging out after killing 20 mobs in 1½ minute, thought this was utterly redicolous, and unplayable - if someone attacked me he or me would die before any of us could react.

So yes, in my perspective it was bug abuse, but hey, those have a divine protection spell on them ( Q hat again, sorry)

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Mim
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Mim » 09 Apr 2021 14:30

Dan wrote:
09 Apr 2021 13:15
maybe it was intentionally too high
Intentions are often hard to speculate in.
AoB told us there was a bug in backstab. The intensions were not this much damage,.

A bug was discovered the other day, and has since been fixed.
This bug caused a select few who use knives as their primary
weapon to experience an unintended boost in special damage.


What was the intended boost of damage one may ask?
And who created the bug in the code that worked so fine for years?

Was the intention of backstab to do x damage of a white hit, and now that white hits became more powerful something went as intended, but not sooo intended because someone died?

When stomp was coded (by Gorboth?) was his intention that 1 stomp should stun a player so he could be pkilled before regaining movement?
Or was the intention to disturb the stunned players fight for a short while?
Maybe G thought 'A 10 second stun doesnt mean much as the fight lasts at least 1 min'....
Then the next day a fight is compressed due to more powerful damage and the 10 sec stomp is suddenly equal to death. Whose intentions overrule here? The coder of the stomp, or the coder of the extra damage?

Would a stomp be coded the same way today is another way to look at it.
Perhaps someone would call the stomp code buggy due to the long stun time???
(To be clear here I would not. The code was probably perfect, but the oversight of adding extra damage to the environment without taking care of what other aspects this would lead to is to blame. Not a bug in the code)

Intentions are hard to speculate in and some intentions are changed by unintened things.

Nerull
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 14:44

Seems like the focalpoint here is all about the VK attack.

I have some input here:

1. Unless there are hardcoded blocks for x or y to enter x location, there is no "safe" places in Genesis. What people think is a safe place isn't an argument for anything - it's entirely on them and their responsibility to be in a true safe location if that is so what they desired.

2. Not wanting to participate in pvp, or test / patch when a game has been upgraded, with quite stern forewarnings - be somewhere safe, or log out? It's ofcourse bitter to be killed, but still doesn't constitute an argument for anything relevant here.

3. CC was disabled after they died. This means they weren't eligible for restorations on default.

4. The damageincrease was equal for all - way more dangeous for anyone, and this swings both ways. Too much? Well, that is a designdecision and open for interpretation. What would happen if Cassius was hunted down and slain by a party of knights? Restoration?

5. "not seeking trouble" is also completely irrelevant. Anyone can kill anyone at any time for no reason at all - with or without forewarning. And guilds participating in wars, or who are wardecced? Members better brace for the harsh reality of "italian hitmen" to full blown gankparties, where the deck is completely stacked in their favour.

None of these points have any bearings in actual gamemechanics actually breaking down, which is, as Cherek mentioned, is a core premise for restorations.

People can complain about their feelings, unpreparedness, or being ganked, the "seems too" and "thought that", but unless there is actually gamelogic that malfunctions, it's completely irrelevant who kills who, where.

The admin doesn't give a shit if the victim is some EC, or Cassius or others - if they died due to odds unfavoury stacked against them, and no bugs introduced, then they would tea with Lars like everybody else.

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Cherek
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Cherek » 09 Apr 2021 14:53

Dan: I will continue to make the best and most fair decisions possible with the information I have at the time. I am very confident the rest of the admins also try their best to make this a game that is as fun and balanced as possible for all players. Do we get everything right every time? No, of course not. Nobody does, in any organisation or in life in general.

Should we end up in a situation where the majority of players feel I am not fit to lead Genesis, because I have made too many bad calls, too many mistakes, and simply lost trust, I will resign. Should any admin member make too many bad calls, mistakes, or even cheat, I will remove them from the admin, or the wizard ranks if needed. I do not think we are there, not by a longshot.

I know with 100% certainty I am not biased towards any group of players, guilds, or whatever, and I always try to be as fair as possible and treat every player the same, no matter who they are. I am very confident Mirandus does as well, and in terms of balance I am also confident Arman, Carnak, and Cotillion wants a balanced and fair game for everyone. Your claims and insinuations are wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. This is classic conspiracy theory stuff. People find eveidence that fits their narrative, and happily ignore any evidence pointing the other way. That's not all your fault tho, it's how these things tend to work in general, and we've seen many examples in the real world lately. About Cassius/Nils, etc it only "makes the news" when something ends up in their favor. When it doesn't, which also happens quite regularly, it doesn't fit the conspiracy theories, nobody gets upset about it, and it doesn't spread. As this vicious circle continues, eventually people who usually don't believe in stuff like this also starts to think "maybe there is something to it after all", and it grows further.

An actual example of how this works:

Cassius makes a good suggestion about the game, and we implement it. Someone hears about it, assumes it was Carnak who implemented it, and before we know it, people think we are supporting Cassius. The actual fact,s which I have tried to spread, was that Cassius makes about 1293 suggestions per year, and in this occasion we agreed with him, and it was an easy and realistic thing to implement. Arman implemented it, while Carnak had not logged in for three months. My attempts to debunk by saying this are dismissed as "part of the cover-up". And before we know it, the rumours spread that "Cassius told us to do something and Carnak did it for him". This becomes the truth, as it perfectly fits the narrtive of us being Cassius-biased.

If some other player makes a suggestion that we implement, nobody gives it a second thought. Nobody things we are biased towards that player, instead people say "Good idea!".

Another example:
For a long time A LOT of players have complained about an imbalance between caster and melee players. Just search the forums and Discord. Cassius is one of these players, Nils too. Both have expressed their opinions about casters having an unfair advatage over melee players. They are two of MANY players who have complained about this. So, when we attempt to rebalance casters/melee, immdiately the rumours spread that we only do it because Cassius/Nils wanted us to. That fits the conspiracy theory perfectly. So, someone digs up some old log where Cassius once told a caster something like "I'll get you nerfed". Perfect! Now we KNOW it's a conspiracy. Let's spread that, and ignore the fact that a large number of players have for a long time made the same complaint.

It's extremely frustrating to be on the "wrong" side of a conspiracy theory, because when people have already decided what is going on, and cherry pick "evidence" that supports this theory, it's extremely hard to change their mind. Even if you provide clear evidence, it can always be countered by "but that's all part of a cover-up". You can counter anything I say or show you with that one line.

This has been going on for a long while. In July last year I wrote this post about fact-checking and critical thinking, in an effort to try to stop what was happening: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5080

To no awail.

I've spent tons of time trying to debunk and provide evidence of all sorts of claims, but I am fighting a losing battle here. I am not going to spend more time trying to debunk these theories. I'll continue as I always have - making fair and just decisions to the best of my abilities, for all players. I am confident the rest of the admin also will continue with this work as well. If you choose to believe the conspiracies, it's gone so far that I don't think there is anything I can say that would change your mind.

To everyone:

Make up your own mind. Either you believe the admin are corrupt and biased towards a certain group of players, and then you can decide if you want to continue playing a game with corrupt and biased leadership. Or, don't believe it. Trust that we try out best to make the best decisions, that we aren't on purpose trying to give advantages to certain groups, and if it happens, it's because we made a _mistake_, because we're human. If you do believe we are actually trying our best here, then STOP spreading and believing in conspiracies and instead stand up AGAINST those who do and challenge their beliefs.

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Cherek
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Cherek » 09 Apr 2021 14:57

Mim: The bug in backstab only existed for about three days, and was unintentionally caused by the AoB team when working on something. (I don't know exactly what, you'd have to ask them directly). It was not bugged for a long time, and it is no longer bugged. We found out when a player was killed in an odd way, the bug was fixed, and the player who died (a goodie) was restored.

Dan
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Dan » 09 Apr 2021 15:02

We will always disagree on the white hits being a bug or not. They were over the top hence people should've restrained themself from using a bugged white hit to kill people with.

Once I was bugged, I had almost infinite haste, I went to Bolg as he was named then, 'kill Bolg' - game grinded to a halt, and 10 seconds later game started again, with a dead bolg at my feet,. I tried a few more npcs, and then communed and had the keeper come to me, then in our stupidity, he said, lets test, and attacked me... 7 minutes later he finally got a peace off in the room, for those 7 minutes noone got a single command thru just him failing to die over and over and over.

Instead I should just have went on a killing spree, abusing this power to powergank players i guess, thats how bad the first round of white hits were!

I can find the log of me slaying stuff in 4 seconds with the redicolous sized whitehits, which i immediatly reported to the AoB who agreed it was over the top, so yes, slaying people using buggy code that one with ½ a braincell would realize 'this is over the top' is where normal people constrain themselves, while griefers grief.

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