Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

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Dan
Wanderer
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Dan » 09 Apr 2021 16:32

Nerull & Kvator - show some sportsmanship, stop degrading others by flinging cheap jokes at them when they try to be serious. - its exactly TripleM is after - grow up, become responsible instead of sinking lower.

Nerull: I am talking about an event in 1998 - where i suddenly had omnigodly powers (infinite haste). And then I¨m talking about the crazy white hits 2021 where i could gank mobs in 4 seconds, and then send carnak a log, 2 different things but i came to the same conclusion both times: this is flawed, it has to stop - and it has to stop quick.

Nils: It's exactly what I mean - you should have come to the same conclusion: this is flawed this is so godly overpowered dps too much that I will refrain from griefing with it - grow up, act responsible. Now You didnt refrain, but realize they probably should've been restored, good to see you coming around (i choose to believe that),.

Carnak: I think your math is flawed, but your intentions good, keep hacking at it, but please look at the white hits math once more at a point 1 white hit shouldnt be more or equal dps to 1 special.

Nerull
Wizard
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 16:53

Dan wrote:
09 Apr 2021 16:32
Nerull: I am talking about an event in 1998 - where i suddenly had omnigodly powers (infinite haste). And then I¨m talking about the crazy white hits 2021 where i could gank mobs in 4 seconds, and then send carnak a log, 2 different things but i came to the same conclusion both times: this is flawed, it has to stop - and it has to stop quick.
You came..to the conclusion that it's flawed? Since you sent your log to Carnak in 2021 about the white-hits, what was his response?

Hektor
Veteran
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Hektor » 09 Apr 2021 16:53

Triple M: Awesome note.

There was alot of take home notes - for us all - there.

There has been so much back and forth everywhere by so many with different opinions and perspectives that I can find it hard to keep track.

I do think, when all is said and done, and especially inspired by Triples note that my perspective remains the same - that all this heated argument, peoples conceptions, the time and energy invested especially in Genesis, but also on other platforms such as Discord or here, - it all stems from the one thing I think most, if not all of us, have in common:

A great passion and care for the game and for the community we share around the game.

I have co-hosted 5 official Genesisparties (and a few good deal non official spontaneous ones) with Genesis passionados from all over the world, and I feel priviliged and happy to still be part of the game and of the community.

It is my intent and my hope to host more and to keep celebrating the game and the community for years to come. Its worth it!

So, Ill follow what I think is some of the core advise of Triples note - take a step back, be grateful for the game and the community and deal with it from a grown up perspective.

Thank you all for the hard work and the passion you have for Genesis. Thank you to wizards who code and create so marvellously for it, and thank you for the players who give the code and creations meaning (sometimes meanings we didnt ever expect!).

Thank you all for the heart and soul you throw into Genesis- lets try and keep it civil and lets be grateful for the things that succeed with Genesis and work harder to fix and improve the things we can.

Thanks all for being around!!!
Lawful evil - conform or die.

Kvator
Champion
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Kvator » 09 Apr 2021 17:16

Zestana wrote:
09 Apr 2021 16:19
You have a high profile player, Cassius...

You have a wizard, Carnak, making changes that fundamentally split the game up... and that seem to benefit said high profile player.
hmm
Cassius is RDA/Lock
the changes actually hit RDA pretty hard (look at posts of unhappy BDA and Calia players and multiple it by two, cause RDA doesn't even profit from this two-handed combat boost)
(Oplocks are even more OP than before but that's 'just' layman)

Where are the said benefits?
Dan wrote:
09 Apr 2021 16:32
Nerull & Kvator - show some sportsmanship, stop degrading others by flinging cheap jokes at them when they try to be serious. - its exactly TripleM is after - grow up, become responsible instead of sinking lower.
I am super serious. Mitigation/Removal of death penalty (at least the xp-part) is something that should be implemented (or considered at least) in the game.

tor
Beginner
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by tor » 09 Apr 2021 17:40

Regarding pkill death and how the immense penalty has affected the current conversation:

Removing the exp loss portion of pkill death is something I've been an advocate of for a long time. That in itself would have alleviated a huge amount of the drama surrounding recent events. An ancient game surviving in 2021 thrives on its uniqueness, but this is one unique aspect we'd be better off without. Players should not need to spend months recovering after dying in a fight that often takes under a minute.

Maybe I should make a different topic, but this is extremely relative to current events. The huge loss of time invested from pkill death is what keeps people afraid of pvp, and leads to highly emotional behaviour afterwards. I understand that loss of gear and humiliation may not be enough of a penalty for pkill death - so instead add in the "recovery cooldown" that many have suggested, where you get a size penalty for a certain amount of active time (1-2 weeks?) rather than a sentence to have to grind for 100 hours. Add rewards/incentives such as titles or cosmetic items for pvp dominance. There are creative ways to bring Genesis into the current century re: pkill death so we can avoid this extremely high level of emotion that surrounds anything related to player deaths.

On the recent drama as a whole:

I'm writing as the leader of a goodie guild that is in direct conflict in-game with the Nils/Cassius squad. Worth noting these guys rub me the wrong way both in and out of game. Typical "scheming schoolyard bully boys club". Then again, being a bully is not against the rules, and good balance requires some villains. I would not play a game without anyone on the other side to brawl with - which, by the way, is how it has often felt in the last month or so with the evil side temporarily diminished.

I'm firmly on the admin's side with the response to the recent discord drama, as well as the series of restores on either side. In fact, as mentioned here it was my party who killed Nils with a movestun after they had allegedly been disabled, and I was the one who came forward instantly in support of a restore for him. I was also one of the ones who supplied Cherek with evidence of Carnak's minor wrongdoings, which I believe have been accounted for.

That said, I think Cherek's doing a good job. I imagine it's not easy to make friends when you're responsible for holding not only players, but fellow wizards accountable for following the rules. Carnak as well, he made a mistake and owned up to it, and left the group chat he was in. I truly believe this sort of thing will not happen between these particular individuals again. Carnak's expressed that he is open to chatting about balance with anyone, and open to considering suggestions from anyone.

I also believe that no actual benefit was gained by these few players knowing about white hit changes 2-3 weeks ahead of time. The "Bloody Sunday" gloat post was just more schoolyard blustering, and not indicative of any actual advantage gained. The kills at VK had little to do with superiority gained through the changes - they could have done that any time, in any one-exit room, with an ogre stomp. Just as a power team of Knights and Neidar could do the same thing to Cassius with Knights block -- this is why he stays in church, unless the boys club is around ;)

It is a fact that good guilds have more pvp tools than evils, a fact that I was slow to come around to (Thanks Nerull), but there's really no denying it. Does this mean there aren't goodie guilds (and evil guilds) that need buffing/nerfing/balancing - Of course not!

Cherek, there has been a lot of disheartening doom and gloom coming from wizards here and on Discord (Yourself and Greneth to name two that come to mind) about how you feel that you're always under attack and that you worry wizards will lose interest as a result. There was also some talk between Greneth and Cotillion about going back to old ways of not discussing any changes with players. I think you guys are listening to a few loud voices a little too much. I hope you and others realize that the majority of players support and respect our active wizards, and in exchange expect your support and respect back. Of course, we will all *hopefully* judge each other as individuals, and not paint the entire Wizhood/Playerbase with a broad brush.

I also think some wizards could be more tactful in how they discuss issues with mortals, especially in Discord. Volunteers or not, they are in a chosen position of responsibility. Dismissiveness or condescension should not be a part of any response to player concerns, whether one agrees or not. Of course, players bear a responsibility towards respectful discourse as well. The relationship dynamic between players and wizards shifts slightly more responsibility to be civil onto the wizards, especially in public channels, in my humble opinion.

Two things I think everyone could reflect on:

Emotions are high in times of distress because Genesis is so dear to us, players and wizzes alike.

Genesis needs more active Wizards. I am hoping this recent drama spurs some of us, who love Genesis and don't want to see it fail, to apply to be a part of the change they want to see in the donut.

Amberlee
Myth
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Amberlee » 09 Apr 2021 18:54

I have to say Tor, I do like your attitude and I agree with many of your points.
However where we disagree is removing death penalty in PvP.
I truly believe that it would only result in people thinking less of consequences regarding attacking others or doing other things that warrant consequences.
Honestly I would not want to play a game that doesn't have that.
You are correct in that there is somewhat of a schoolyard bully mentality in some and I assure you that is true for both sides.
More so when it comes to goodies though for some reason.

Personally I really enjoy playing the villain and I am more than happy to provide people with that :P
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Cherek
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Cherek » 09 Apr 2021 19:02

Kvator: We've discussed changing the death penalty several times before here on the forums, and there has been many ideas on how to adjust it to make PVP more fun. There are pros and cons with both. I tend to lean towards making it less harsh for PVP, but Amberlee just brought up what tends to be the main argument against, and that's also a valid concern. But if you want to discuss that further, best start another thread, though.

Edit: Apparently there is already a thread about it. Let's go there :)

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Zhar
Wizard
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Zhar » 10 Apr 2021 16:00

Dan wrote:
09 Apr 2021 16:32
Carnak: I think your math is flawed, but your intentions good, keep hacking at it, but please look at the white hits math once more at a point 1 white hit shouldnt be more or equal dps to 1 special.
According to the original formula around which specials were designed that's pretty much exactly what it should be. x caid should equal 1 extra whitehit/round and that's the pivot point around which special damage is being calculated (obviously there are more variables that go into the equation like chance to hit, cooldowns etc.).

The reason whitehits were changed was because previously there was a bug where specials did 2.7x more damage than they should. Carnak had basically 2 options here: nerf specials or buff whitehits. In my opinion buffing whitehits was the good way to go as it enabled guilds that couldn't rely on their specials for damage. Nerfing specials could achieve similar results but then you'd end up with fights taking too long, which would also immediately make tanking harder (as you're exposed to damage longer) and would cause equipment to wear down much more (which would require additional fixes).

Right now the change made fights more volatile and faster, which is good for your equipment but bad for your scripts as you can do pretty much whatever you were doing before just need to pay more attention.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Dan
Wanderer
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Dan » 11 Apr 2021 05:16

Just because you keep repeating a number - 2.6 or 2.7 doesnt make the formula that came to the 2.6 or 2.7 true.

First flaw in the formula:
A special hits after x seconds, it can't just hit after 0 seconds - white hits do and can 'kill target' if lucky instant you hit...
To be 2.7 a special or a spell should be doing the same, wired into the combat cycle instead of being on its own timer.

Second flaw:
In the time of 1 special, you have many white hits, especially haste seems to scale the white hits far more than the special. This doesnt seem to have been properly calculated as 1 white hit now appears to be more potent than 1 special hit. The special 'should' at least be the same as the dual hits from 2 singlehanded weapons or the same as 1 hit from a twohander.

Anyhow, im just reiterating myself - the math behind the 2.6 is the basic flaw, and is why the game ended as unbalanced as it is right now.

Carnak
Wanderer
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Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58

Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Carnak » 11 Apr 2021 17:09

Dan wrote:
11 Apr 2021 05:16
Just because you keep repeating a number - 2.6 or 2.7 doesnt make the formula that came to the 2.6 or 2.7 true.

First flaw in the formula:
A special hits after x seconds, it can't just hit after 0 seconds - white hits do and can 'kill target' if lucky instant you hit...
To be 2.7 a special or a spell should be doing the same, wired into the combat cycle instead of being on its own timer.

Second flaw:
In the time of 1 special, you have many white hits, especially haste seems to scale the white hits far more than the special. This doesnt seem to have been properly calculated as 1 white hit now appears to be more potent than 1 special hit. The special 'should' at least be the same as the dual hits from 2 singlehanded weapons or the same as 1 hit from a twohander.

Anyhow, im just reiterating myself - the math behind the 2.6 is the basic flaw, and is why the game ended as unbalanced as it is right now.
Indeed Dan, the numbers being flung around dont matter! So lets go with entirely arbitrary ones, just to make it more fun.

White hits were increased by apples and oranges (not even numbers?), due to the fundamental basic principle of our balance. We had once upon a time decided that the white hits are 25 chocolate maidens (Number is fictional). Due to chocolate maidens being a big long to type, lets shorten this down to CAID. Upon these 25 CAID we built an entire system, which turned out to have an incorrect calculation at its core. This is what was normalized in white hits, effectively increasing its damage.

Now if we compare a 25 CAID (chocolate maidens.. yum..) special, which uses the same stats as your normal white hits, and has reached the maximum on its counted guild experience (and a few other variables). The damage output will be the same as 25 CAID white hits over time. (There is a small variance depending on the size of your target and hit chance of your special). There have been hundreds of hours spent in game comparing this with the actual damage values, just to verify that the calculations are correct.

Now that we know that 25 should equal 25, we seem to have reached the point of commenting on your statements.

Statement 1: "First flaw in the formula"
White hit has a combat rotation, much like specials. If you are in combat, there is a continuous effort to hit, until you effectively leave combat long enough for this to stop. Once you've left combat, this needs to start up just like any special. So you are working with an incorrect assumption that you can get a "lucky" instant hit, that lucky instant hit can happen just the same with a special which is loading. Also, if you are instantly killing something with white hits, you should probably try bigger targets.

Statement 2: "Second flaw" (So many points here, should probably have been listed as several flaws?)
1. Indeed, you can have several white hits in the time that you hit with one special. In fact, the longer the special, the stronger the special. We account for the time.
2. White hits and specials follow the exact same scaling formula for haste.
3. 25 CAID special should since my changes deal the same as 25 CAID white hits, whether you are dual wielding or using a two handed weapon.

Now to the point, I am not sure on what you are basing your assumptions. If you have definite calculations and proof that any of your statements are accurate, then by all means, send it to me so that I can correct it.

It is possible that you may be using an incorrect assumption that a special you are using should equal that of white hits, and use that to base your theories. Not all specials equal white hits, in fact few do. Guilds are generally not built to put all their eggs in one basket. This does however not mean that white hits are better than specials, in fact specials overall have a higher potential than white hits.

Balance is difficult even if you have all the specifics, so trying to do it with the descriptions and the time it takes to kill something cannot be easy. Kudos to you for trying!

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