Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

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Nerull
Wizard
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Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 15:06

Dan wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:02
We will always disagree on the white hits being a bug or not. They were over the top hence people should've restrained themself from using a bugged white hit to kill people with.

Once I was bugged, I had almost infinite haste, I went to Bolg as he was named then, 'kill Bolg' - game grinded to a halt, and 10 seconds later game started again, with a dead bolg at my feet,. I tried a few more npcs, and then communed and had the keeper come to me, then in our stupidity, he said, lets test, and attacked me... 7 minutes later he finally got a peace off in the room, for those 7 minutes noone got a single command thru just him failing to die over and over and over.

Instead I should just have went on a killing spree, abusing this power to powergank players i guess, thats how bad the first round of white hits were!

I can find the log of me slaying stuff in 4 seconds with the redicolous sized whitehits, which i immediatly reported to the AoB who agreed it was over the top, so yes, slaying people using buggy code that one with ½ a braincell would realize 'this is over the top' is where normal people constrain themselves, while griefers grief.
Right. But, you said you had infinite haste - it sounds to me that this was the factor that was broken, and not necessarily the white hit damage?

TripleM
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by TripleM » 09 Apr 2021 15:11

I have thought long and hard whether or not to post on the subject. I apologize for the length of this post to those who think its worth their while to read it. I think several issues got mixed in a toxic cocktail which resulted to an explosive environment. Old grudges, history of recent and not so recent events – dubious conduct and dubious accusations. Naturally emotions flared, the pitchforks came out, expectations were not met, feelings got hurt etc.

It is pretty hard to stay neutral in matters like this. I myself can honestly say that when I returned to the Donut 3 years ago, I thought I was pretty much on speaking terms with pretty much everyone. Subsequently I somehow got mixed up in some old grudge and got killed in game by a character whose player is in the middle of a lot of incidents. Incidents that are borderline within the rules, conduct that I personally think in multiple cases is beyond what I think is acceptable.

So I started to adapt – you start to take part in all the gossiping – you report stuff you think is not correct or ok. You start to be part of schemes where you want to try and get back on the scoreboard – you start distrusting people, you start to add people who are friendly with said character to that list. Last year I got mixed up in an incident where apparently a bug was used to get my nemesis out of the church. I can honestly say I did not know at the time HOW or why Cassius got out of the church. I totally understand people do not believe that, and if you will not take my word for it, there’s no way for me to prove it or for you to disprove it. The real issue is that while I knew instantly that there must be something off, I still did not feel any shame when attacking him and be part of the infamous kill that was overturned. I told myself afterwards that if things were the other way around, he’d have done it to me too or probably would have been the one that got me out of the church. I tarnished my own reputation by using that logic to justify my own acts. Did I break a rule? No, but that does not make it right.

So something has happened past couple of years, that lowered my behavior to a standard I am not proud of. Polarizing my views on matters, distrusting the calls (not) being made upstairs. I am a full grown man in his 40s who settled down in real life, has 2 kids that mean the world to me, yet I feel real frustration and anger about a game I play since ’94 when back in the day I did not worry about shit like this at all. So what now? I am sick and tired of all the intrigue that goes beyond character. The easiest way should be to storm off and yell I no longer give a rodents arse about this game anymore and focus on grown-up shit. There is certainly some merit to that. Is that the desired outcome though? I am going to argue that a better approach would be we ALL clean up our act. Including myself.

I think Kelrhys is on the money – the administration should have restored the casualties. I think that was an error. Unfair even. However when mistakes are made, there may be ways to correct them. Sometimes there’s none available, and the only thing left to do is saying ‘Sorry’. I will be the first to admit though that I make mistakes too. One of them being focusing too much on trying to get punishment for the perpetrators over consideration for the victims of the situation. Sorry.
I do feel the administration is making a similar mistake to the one I made. The focus is on taking a stance versus punishment for the perpetrators, instead of leniency for the victims. I get the impression that is because in people’s heads these matters have to be related.

I think Carnak got his reputation tarnished by a margin that is unfair to him. Sure, he made a serious mistake himself too. He seems to be taking responsibility and blame. He in fact said ‘Sorry’. I do not know him really, but he is performing open-heart-surgery on the very core of the game and we need him to succeed. I am worried about part of the results so far, but all of us should not try to make his hands wobble here. As far as I am concerned, I support him and hope he succeeds. He still has quite some work cut out for him.

I think Cassius and Nils executed a bold but rotten move that is borderline within the rules with the immediate result of damaging Carnak’s reputation while he was just getting started with his crucial surgery. FFS, just because you can, you don’t have to pull off shit like that. Over screenshot-gate itself, I feel it is another low the way the information even got slung into the world. I think the evidence in there is not explicit enough for a hanging but the gist of it is pretty clear. And it looks bad. You both are very skilled and very knowledgeable players. You certainly are way better PvP-ers than me. Nils writes funnier notes than me (what you like doing with your ding-dong is not necessarily info I need), Cassius is a god knows how much bigger and better a fighter than me. If I were to make a prediction: ‘I have no doubt Cassius will in fact kill me again’. And I am pretty damn sure there is no need for finding a hole in some rule or some special circumstance in the environment to do it. And if you do it clean like that, you’ll get way more respect than the way you went about here. Clean up your act, you can do it.
If you in fact care for your brother’s reputation, don’t get him in this spot. If you care for the game where you made it to number 1 by a large margin, change your ways. Your number 1 status will hold more value if you do.

Good sportsmanship should become a core value in the game. I think Tor and co set a fine example helping get Nils a swift restoration. I think I heard Chanele say she stayed on the bench for situations like the now infamous Bloody Sunday for not wanting to take advantage of a skewed PvP environment. I am sure there are more examples. People like me should not whine and scream ‘deletion’ or ‘bias’ whenever shit like this happens. Not cool, trust the referees. And even if they make a mistake, such is life. I shall start with that myself.

Cherek, we had several long and heated exchanges over stuff like this. I think you your posts on the matter try to defend each and every call that was made in the process. I think it shows commitment, and sticking with ones beliefs. You stick with your guys upstairs. Good work. So my last remark to the ‘referees’: I honestly do believe some of those calls could and should have been different. Maybe not entirely mandatory within our current rules, but you know the total picture stinks here. You try to convince us everything smells like daisies and that we ourselves all use dubious knowledge. Case closed! That is where you turn up the heat instead of extinguishing the fire.

Maybe a suggestion for a change/addition: I think our ‘referees’ should get some kind of ‘good sportmanship’ clause available. Indeed a rule that allows some room for doing something ‘fair’ even if the other rules don’t make it mandatory to do so. People clearly offending good sportmanship don’t get deleted or killed, but if the referee deems something was not ok, they get to sit on the bench for x period of time. People on the wrong end get restored. Is it a perfectly clear rule? No. But as is Carnak will be performing more surgery in near future, do we really want more events like these in the hours/days those changes go live? Is this good for the game in the long run? Exciting new changes first resulting in a shitstorm and people having to grind a long time to recover? It is pretty special the game is still there in 2021. But right now, things have become real ugly. If we don’t change the way we go about things, the end of the line will be near.

Nerull
Wizard
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 15:30

What would the rule of "good sportmanship" entail? Sounds like a list of a few hundred limitations would be a dreadful nightmare for the aop to even maintain, considering much would be entirely subjective. :D

Kvator
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Kvator » 09 Apr 2021 15:37

aight

are we at the point to finally discuss removal/mitigation of death penalty in the game? :P

Nerull
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 15:42

Kvator wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:37
aight

are we at the point to finally discuss removal/mitigation of death penalty in the game? :P
Would that be worth exploring, as in, some new routines for death and penalties? :)

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Silon
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Silon » 09 Apr 2021 15:47

Talking about death mitigation with an evil wizard who brings death and destruction :D
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

Nerull
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 15:49

Silon wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:47
Talking about death mitigation with an evil wizard who brings death and destruction :D
Nothing wrong with an good old fasioned pact with the reaper. What could possibly go wrong? :twisted:

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Silon
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Silon » 09 Apr 2021 15:54

Nerull wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:49
Silon wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:47
Talking about death mitigation with an evil wizard who brings death and destruction :D
Nothing wrong with an good old fasioned pact with the reaper. What could possibly go wrong? :twisted:
Everything. Everything can go wrong.
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 158
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by Nerull » 09 Apr 2021 15:55

Silon wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:54
Nerull wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:49
Silon wrote:
09 Apr 2021 15:47
Talking about death mitigation with an evil wizard who brings death and destruction :D
Nothing wrong with an good old fasioned pact with the reaper. What could possibly go wrong? :twisted:
Everything. Everything can go wrong.
..said no lich, mummie, vampire, deathknight, wight or wraith or zombie lord, ever. :mrgreen:

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nils
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Re: Underlying cause and proposed solution to broken trust

Post by nils » 09 Apr 2021 16:09

I was not going to comment on this whole mess at all in fear of instigating even more delusional conspiracy theories, and I won't be lengthy about it. Here goes.

What I find really fascinating here is that people recognize various skills (some of them I'm not sure I actually can live up to), yet seem to think that the only way this could have happened is by some devine (admin/developer) intervention of sorts.

Is it, and this is a legit question, possible to imagine that between the awakening after armageddon and the three pvp deaths that followed later that day, I/we actually tested out the changes, gauged it's potency, the efficacy of my/our armours and defensive ability and acted on my/our own observations purely motivated by being a dick?

Are you able to chalk this shit down to just me being an asshole?

Lastly, can you imagine a way of looking at this as a way to gauge the then very recent changes in a way few others could? It was a live test was it not?

I'm sure nobody cares about how I feel in regards to the three victim's restorations. As far as I know, and I base that on what Cherek's been saying here, none of the three victims have even asked for a restoration. If they're ok with it, why is everyone else so upset about it like the good social justice warriors we know and love on the internet?

Will restoring them bring back order? By all means, restore them.
There's my sportsmanship.

Asshole out.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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