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Playerkilling 
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Site Admin
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Posts: 2127
Location: Some old coffin
Perhaps the most difficult issue for the Administration is player conflict. When one player kills another, here some of the results I am used to seeing:

1. The victim remains silent, and goes about playing the game.
2. The victim remains silent, but quits playing the game.
3. The victim mails the admin, posts a flaming note on the boards, and goes about playing the game.
4. The victim mails the admin, posts a flaming note on the boards, and quits playing the game.

I have posted these responses in rank order. The ranking is not most to least common. Rather, the ranking is from most to least appreciated. I think that just about everyone - Admin, friends, and (believe it or not) foes, respect most a player who takes an injustice or setback in stride, goes about playing the game, and does not make a fuss.

Now, am I suggesting that everyone who has ever mailed me angrily about being playerkilled should not have done so? No, I am not saying that. Rather, I am just pointing out that there are options when you are pkilled, and your choice goes a long way in terms of earning you a reputation among both wizards and players.

Something that I continue to wonder about is why the playerbase chooses not to agressively police its own borders. I do not say this to chastise the playerbase, or indicate that I think they are cowardly or disorganized. Rather, I wonder if there is a design issue that prevents this from happening. Here is what I imagine it would take to effectively police the borders for players by players:

1. Players would need to organize a cross-guild task force of justice-seekers (a posse, if you will.)
2. The posse would need to decide what sorts of crimes were sufficient to call them to action.
3. The posse would need to decide on the sort of concerted response that would be effective when action was called for.
4. The posse would need to be willing to make sacrifices to achieve their aims, including being willing to die and see friends die.

So, I continue to wonder. What prevents this? Am I way off base here?

G.

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08 Mar 2010 18:14
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While I am a player thats rather well-knowned for not wanting to involve wizards when it comes to PvP actions,
I am prolly the one player in Genesis history that has had the most talks with the AoP over pattacks/pkills over
the years.


Personally I think players should take care of business themself, not involving wizards after getting playerkilled
unless they actually suspect foul-play/cheating was involved.

If you get killed, get even! Don't run to the Admin hoping they will deal with it for you. Grow a pair and get some
friends together and find a way to kill your enemy.


But back to the things you brought up in your note Gorboth, I think alot of people think its impossible to kill people
in the game today, many just give up instead of trying to get even. Which in the end is bad for the game, cause
alot of people leave after getting pkilled by people they deem unkillable(like the big Vamps-are-unkillable-fuss that
went on for years). As it is now, there's is currently 3-4 guilds that have huge advantage towards the rest of the game
when it comes to playerfighting, and its not through firepower, but rather the ability to control your enemies movement
[moderator: references to specific guild abilities removed]
Personally I think its way due to even the playing field here, why reward just a handful of guilds with these tools when
there's so many guilds out there that completely lacks the way to pkill someone?

I would say, either remove these abilities/spells or make them accessable for all.

Personally I do think the game would be alot more fun if people fought more like in the days of old, where you could
gather a team of 6-7 people up and go off to battle a similar team of your enemies. And then if you had the luck with
you could slay one of your enemies and if not, you or one of your friends got killed.
Back then people's first re-action wasent running to the nearest PO and mail the Admin and whining, but rather running back
to their guild to re-equip and go join the team again and try to get even!

Perhaps PvP deaths needs to be made easier to recover from and making it easier for everyone to kill eachother
(introducing the global block would be one way)or creating items such as the caltrops etc to prevent people from
hitting their macro/map button to run 200 rooms off. Another way would be to make it to introduce a "flee" command
if you wish to leave combat, making it random if you succeed or fail with it, or perhaps making it so that if your trying
to run away from combat -you leave your back open for attacks, making it easier to hit you or making it so that a player
that is blocking another player takes more hits than normally.

I would also like to see changes in spells/abilties that prevent your movement to be changed,
for example

Blocking -If you block a person you take more hits/also the need for combat to be iniated for block to start.

[moderator: references to specific guild abilities removed]

While I love playerfighting I know there are people out there that doesn't enjoy the thrill of the hunt or the terror of being
chased by a large team of enemies, in some way I do think a system should be made possible for them to enjoy the game.
Perhaps introducing a system where you can be active/inactive for playerfights, although I am sure such a system would
get plenty of abuse, it could be a good solution for some people to be left alone if they do not wish part of the PvP that
takes place in the game.




To sum my long and confused note up, I am for playerfighting and for players taking responsility/retaliation in their
own hands and not whining to get wizards to step in every time a fight doesn't go their way, but at the same time
I do think an option for those who wish to be left alone should be created as well as leveling the PvP playingfield by
giving everyone/no one the powers of preventing movement of their foes.


08 Mar 2010 18:36
Site Admin
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36
Posts: 2577
I agree completely with Lindros. Everyone needs to be able to control movement of other players. Doesnt matter how, just give us SOME kind of way to grab hold of our killer and "police" ourselves.

The block/stun abilities are few, and if you want to go up against say a team of three legend/myth guys with extremely lethal stackable stuns, then you need some serious ability to do the same against them. Otherwise its just suicide to even try.

Gorboth, we "normal" players of non-stun-guilds just don't have the tools to get even when we get killed by the "big bullies". And since those abilities are so few most of us doesnt even know anyone who has them, or has the size needed to block myths/legends. And, to make it even harder, the "bullies" usually dont target the guilds that could potentially kill them. So those who _could_ help me make my kill have little interest in risking their own life to kill someone who is not their enemy. So I am left with very little options except just try to grind my way back up, mail aop and cry my heart out, or stop playing.

It was fun back in the days, and I'd hope it one day is fun to pfight again, but it's gonna take a wizard effort to make it happen. We cant do it ourselves because most of us dont have the tools to make a pkill unless getting really lucky. Why even bother...? That's, sadly, how I see it.

In the old days there was one big factor to even out the field - Lag. We dont need more lag now, but we need a factor to make it equally easy for everyone to kill someone else. I like diversity, I really do, but if we want a serious working PVP environment, there has to be some kind of PVP-balance too. After the semi-complete recoded we're left with an even more uneven playing field which just made things worse in that aspect. It's especially bad when opposing factors were given very uneven tools in terms of PVP. So... its gotta even out somehow.

I think Lindros ideas about this issues are all excellent.

Finally,
I have a dare to our wizards. If you have some mortal chars, gang up, and try to kill someone of your own size without any type of stun or block. Or lets just have a wizday event, and try the same. Either way, see how many kills you manage (if any)? I am not mocking you, just thinking it may be a good learning experience if you havent seriously played the game as a mortal from a pvp aspect in a long while.


08 Mar 2010 19:49
Profile
Seriously, moderating things the entire game knows, whats up with that?


The problem of certain guilds having unbalanced spells doesnt go away just cause the part of the post is edided you know ;)

Sure its an official forum and all that, but lets get real, its not like I revealed anything that wasent common knowledge,
was it ?

Also I would have prefered getting PM'd to alter it, rather than have a moderator take things out, and leaving the entire
note out of context.


08 Mar 2010 20:04
Legend
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54
Posts: 769
What if there was a system that allowed a player, once a week, to set his flag to pvp/non-pvp (visible at the who-list if you had the person on remember)?

A nonpvp-flagged player can't assist or heal a pvp-flagged teammember under assault of enemy players etc, or, alternatively, loose his non-pvp flag and be killable. (this can be abused though).

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08 Mar 2010 20:11
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Site Admin
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Posts: 2127
Location: Some old coffin
Lindros wrote:
Seriously, moderating things the entire game knows, whats up with that?


The problem of certain guilds having unbalanced spells doesnt go away just cause the part of the post is edided you know ;)

Sure its an official forum and all that, but lets get real, its not like I revealed anything that wasent common knowledge,
was it ?

Also I would have prefered getting PM'd to alter it, rather than have a moderator take things out, and leaving the entire
note out of context.


Welcome to the Official Forum. ;-)

That being said, your response was excellent. Hearing such candid remarks from one of the most active participants in PvP is helpful indeed. Others?

G.

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08 Mar 2010 20:26
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Titan

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Posts: 493
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!
I would like more varied pfighting abilities. Right now pfighting is boring. The thing is that good guilds have always had skills for teamwork, however it is hard to fetch a team nowadays. Good guilds rely on calians for damage, but other than Tristram few were around at all. We rely on knights to trap opponents but only Chade is seldom around, we rely on rangers for healing but only Xar is around when nobody else is, and on neidars for tanking but now that Irk and Tor are gone only Logg and I stay.

It is pretty hard for a neidar team to kill someone (unless we are fighting much smaller people or priests, we cannot do huge damage in quick bursts like mages and ogres). Even if we find someone fighting Kernan at terribly hurt, we won't be able to kill him without spending a good minute getting him down.

What prevents what you said, Gorboth? We are too few. I am guessing that from the last hundred pkills, catching someone idling or doing him a lot of damage are the only two ways they were done (in overwhelming circunstances).


08 Mar 2010 20:50
Profile
I think Lindros is right, I know ive mentioned before lowering the exp loss of pvp to next to nothing. It would reduce drama and instead of people upset over the exp loss it would be people upset that they were caught off guard. People will be more daring in their attacks, getting more people together now that they know that as a casual player they wont lose all that exp they gained.


08 Mar 2010 20:52
Maizara wrote:
I think Lindros is right, I know ive mentioned before lowering the exp loss of pvp to next to nothing. It would reduce drama and instead of people upset over the exp loss it would be people upset that they were caught off guard. People will be more daring in their attacks, getting more people together now that they know that as a casual player they wont lose all that exp they gained.



Next to nothing is not a good option, maybe cutting it in half from a death now would be more appropriate, otherwise death would mean nothing.


Rhynox,

so do I understand you correctly when your complaining that goodies have all these super team tools, but not
enough active players around? Try playing in an evil guild where you have mediocre damage/tanking and no
team abilities whatsoever ;)

Goodies in a combo of guilds, will beat the crap out of a team of bigger evil chars, just because evil players
do not have the same abilities in teams, such as [moderator: references to specific guild abilities removed]

If anyone should complain its evil players, how have what, defend teammate with a shield?


The only reason why evil players tend to have a higher pkill ratio than goodies, is because evil players think
outside of the box and are more creative in coming up ways/tactics/traps to kill their enemies.


08 Mar 2010 20:58
Titan

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Posts: 493
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!
It is because evil players are actually interested in pfighting. Very few good aligned characters are interested in pfighting (at least, from the current playerbase). And respectfully, the few good ones interested that were interested in pfighting are either people who won't get damage until all their team is vanquished (calians) or are seconds from evil pfighters.

What I think is that evil aligned guilds have the advantage of being self sufficient. An ogre alone or a RDA alone can stand his ground (and probably win a battle against) someone else. The neidars are really good tanking guilds, but I cannot expect to win a fight unless there is an important size difference, something that is not necessary with evil guilds. Right now, goodie teams are not that common so they are at an advantage.

And let's not even speak about spellcasters. Magic has virtually 100% hit rate, extremely short recovery time and does huge damage. You cannot compete against that.


08 Mar 2010 21:12
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