Playerkilling

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Lindros

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 09 Mar 2010 06:47

Rhynox wrote:My point was that someone doing more damage than a neidar could take Hektor down (forcing him to spend most of the time healing than attacking). I haven't fought spellcasters in a good while, but if you cannot break their concentration it is pretty bad indeed. I understand the reasons, a spellcaster would not be able to grind by himself (much like a calian), but that was one of the best changes introduced (and your only chance when fighting a mage or a priest).

While we are at it, I wonder when the wizards will finally change the mages into an occupational/layman guild, being the only spellcasting occ guild that holds one spot (and I would say being more powerful than the others).

I can tell you its not that easy. just the other day, 1 myth ogre, 1 legend AA and 1 near legend Ogre, tried to kill Hektor.
Result of 2 ogres(who according to everyone pack mean damage)+1 huge AA hitting Hektor, was that he was Vbs for a
brief moment then Hektor healed himself up to almost full health.

So trying to stack damage to beat a spellcaster is not an option anymore, not when they have high combat skills/defensive spells/health regen
as they all seem to have these days.

Currently the magic system is flawed, but we are all aware of that. Magic users are the best grinders out there more or less(1 or 2 melee guilds are equal/better),
as a result the magic users of the game are legends/myths when in the past they were much smaller. The end result of this
is players with huge stats in spellcasting guilds are doing things wizards deemed impossible in the past(when these guilds
were introduced/balanced). Hopefully the magic recode that is being done as we speak will fix this, but on the other hand
who knows what will come of the recode.

Maizara

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Maizara » 09 Mar 2010 07:07

Lindros wrote:
Rhynox wrote:My point was that someone doing more damage than a neidar could take Hektor down (forcing him to spend most of the time healing than attacking). I haven't fought spellcasters in a good while, but if you cannot break their concentration it is pretty bad indeed. I understand the reasons, a spellcaster would not be able to grind by himself (much like a calian), but that was one of the best changes introduced (and your only chance when fighting a mage or a priest).

While we are at it, I wonder when the wizards will finally change the mages into an occupational/layman guild, being the only spellcasting occ guild that holds one spot (and I would say being more powerful than the others).

I can tell you its not that easy. just the other day, 1 myth ogre, 1 legend AA and 1 near legend Ogre, tried to kill Hektor.
Result of 2 ogres(who according to everyone pack mean damage)+1 huge AA hitting Hektor, was that he was Vbs for a
brief moment then Hektor healed himself up to almost full health.

So trying to stack damage to beat a spellcaster is not an option anymore, not when they have high combat skills/defensive spells/health regen
as they all seem to have these days.

Currently the magic system is flawed, but we are all aware of that. Magic users are the best grinders out there more or less(1 or 2 melee guilds are equal/better),
as a result the magic users of the game are legends/myths when in the past they were much smaller. The end result of this
is players with huge stats in spellcasting guilds are doing things wizards deemed impossible in the past(when these guilds
were introduced/balanced). Hopefully the magic recode that is being done as we speak will fix this, but on the other hand
who knows what will come of the recode.
Ive heard so many back and forth stories and been apart of a few myself. I remember Aquila as a Champ AA back when I had my Calian at Hero and I was with Nikiel in M.E. I watched as Aquila tore through Nikiel before tearing through me as we barely escaped, this was back when the bounties were placed upon him and Hektor and those they teamed with. As he torn through both of us me being a swarmer with a GT and Nikiel at Legend we brought him down to VBS. While Nikiel was at BS and myself at TH before we had to flee.

Lindros

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 09 Mar 2010 07:13

Maizara wrote:
Lindros wrote:
Rhynox wrote:My point was that someone doing more damage than a neidar could take Hektor down (forcing him to spend most of the time healing than attacking). I haven't fought spellcasters in a good while, but if you cannot break their concentration it is pretty bad indeed. I understand the reasons, a spellcaster would not be able to grind by himself (much like a calian), but that was one of the best changes introduced (and your only chance when fighting a mage or a priest).

While we are at it, I wonder when the wizards will finally change the mages into an occupational/layman guild, being the only spellcasting occ guild that holds one spot (and I would say being more powerful than the others).

I can tell you its not that easy. just the other day, 1 myth ogre, 1 legend AA and 1 near legend Ogre, tried to kill Hektor.
Result of 2 ogres(who according to everyone pack mean damage)+1 huge AA hitting Hektor, was that he was Vbs for a
brief moment then Hektor healed himself up to almost full health.

So trying to stack damage to beat a spellcaster is not an option anymore, not when they have high combat skills/defensive spells/health regen
as they all seem to have these days.

Currently the magic system is flawed, but we are all aware of that. Magic users are the best grinders out there more or less(1 or 2 melee guilds are equal/better),
as a result the magic users of the game are legends/myths when in the past they were much smaller. The end result of this
is players with huge stats in spellcasting guilds are doing things wizards deemed impossible in the past(when these guilds
were introduced/balanced). Hopefully the magic recode that is being done as we speak will fix this, but on the other hand
who knows what will come of the recode.
Ive heard so many back and forth stories and been apart of a few myself. I remember Aquila as a Champ AA back when I had my Calian at Hero and I was with Nikiel in M.E. I watched as Aquila tore through Nikiel before tearing through me as we barely escaped, this was back when the bounties were placed upon him and Hektor and those they teamed with. As he torn through both of us me being a swarmer with a GT and Nikiel at Legend we brought him down to VBS. While Nikiel was at BS and myself at TH before we had to flee.

I am guessing this was just briefly after Angmar had re-opened? They were severely nerfed since then.
Also it is my experience that alignment is key when battling Circle members, it makes a huge diffrence.

I can prolly dig up the log and post it in the logs section of the forum if people want that...

Bromen
Champion
Posts: 678
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 06:29

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Bromen » 09 Mar 2010 08:02

I'd love to see it!

Hektor
Veteran
Posts: 207
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:25

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Hektor » 09 Mar 2010 09:38

Lindros. Maybe you were too busy running after me, but I was not VBS just once. It may have seemed brief to you the two times I was. One of the times I was hiding for quite a long time before you found me again. Also:

1. There are more ways to heal than just spells (herbs & potions, I may choose not to use them while you are watching)
2. I wasn't the only healer in my team. (He did a great job actually)
3. You guys almost came close to killing me 2 times.:) (Thanks for rush!)
4. Standing still in the room spamming heal, didn't prevent me dropping to VBS in a split, (almost as fast as when Freya attacked me one on one. Im still amazed at how fast you guys were able to BLAM BLAM me - I thought it was slower :))

Let me show you a bit of the fight from my perspective (removed my commands, plus components use and the name of my teammates)

Code: Select all

Lindros stomps in from the south.
Bofur stomps in from the south.
A swarthy savage male minotaur arrives from the south.
Lindros attacks you!
Bofur attacks you!
Yes, yes.
> 
The swarthy savage male minotaur attacks you!
The swarthy savage male minotaur grins evilly, swinging his runed mithril warhammer around.
X expertly attempts a Song of Power, and the air stirs with the beauty and power of the music.
Lindros grins stupidly.
The swarthy savage male minotaur batters your body with his runed mithril warhammer.
Bofur pounds your body with his sledgehammer of the colossus.
Lindros' attack on you hits nothing but shadows and mist.
BLAM!! BLAM!! One after the other Lindros brings his sledgehammer of the colossus and sledgehammer of the colossus hurtling down on you!
You feel absolutely throttled.
BLAM!! BLAM!! One after the other Bofur brings his sledgehammer of the colossus and sledgehammer of the colossus hurtling down on you!
You feel fairly devastated.
You tickle the head of Lindros with your heavy steel club.
Lindros seems to be hardly keeping senses.
Bofur bounces around uncontrollably, practically devastating the area!

You are physically feeling rather hurt and mentally slightly degraded.
The swarthy savage male minotaur is feeling very well.
Bofur is feeling very well.
Lindros is feeling very well.
X is feeling very well.
You mentally call upon Psuchae for power.

A soft wind blows around your ears carrying the voice of Y whispering:
Ship arrived now, and stays for 60 seconds

You are physically feeling rather hurt and mentally slightly degraded.
The swarthy savage male minotaur is feeling very well.
Bofur is feeling very well.
Lindros is feeling very well.
X is feeling very well.
> 
The swarthy savage male minotaur tries to hit you with his runed mithril warhammer but misses.

You are already concentrating on a spell.

You are already concentrating on a spell.
> 
Lindros batters your body with his sledgehammer of the colossus.
Bofur batters your right arm with his sledgehammer of the colossus.
Bofur pounds your left arm with his sledgehammer of the colossus.
The swarthy savage male minotaur pounds your legs with his runed mithril warhammer.

The swarthy savage male minotaur viciously whips his long horns across your legs, tearing a nasty wound.
You are already concentrating on a spell.
> 
You aid yourself with your healing powers.
A pleasant warmth briefly overcomes you as you feel your injuries healing.

You are physically in a bad shape and mentally slightly degraded.
The swarthy savage male minotaur is feeling very well.
Bofur is feeling very well.
Lindros is feeling very well.
X is feeling very well.
> 
You are now hunted by Lindros, Bofur and a swarthy savage male minotaur.
The town of Last.
There are three obvious exits: east, west and south.
X arrives walking bow-legged from the south.
Your legs run away with you!
5. Do I think you guys shouldn't have won? Absolutely not. You are 3 extremely offensive fighters against a defensive Cleric. Should you have killed me. Absolutely. I'm an idiot and you are all in my head :)

Rhynox is quite right I might add. You can't as a spellcaster do everything at once.
Oh and the Aquila thing that Maizara brought up it wasn't just AAs damage yield. Aquila simply had bouncing down to an artform. He had the exact seconds on our offensive spells, so he was able to bounce a scop without taking even 1 spell of damage. I once wasted 6 mana levels on him and hardly getting a single spell. There are some downsides that spells have, which specials do not have. He is the single-most streetsmart playerfighter I have ever fought.

It seems the argument remains that when anyone fight a scop, it has nothing to do with guildpowers for the attacker in question. If you beat me (kill or I am forced to flee), its because I'm stupid, inexperienced and a poor playerfighter and you are extremely streetsmart, almost inside my head. I should as scop, per default, win with my powers.
If you don't kill me or you have to flee, the scop are overpowered, I am still stupid and inexperienced and anyone could win with those spells.

All I can say to that: As a GA Calian participating actively in the AA wars, and later the only Calian logging on an entire summer with RDA and BDA everywhere (post the dragontraps at RB effectively shutting down the Calian guild) and eventually as a mercenary battling the morgul mages in the Belecthor wars.. It is possible I am incompetent with my offensive powers (I am not ruling that out!) I do, however, know what to wear and how to run:D

As for spellcasters as a whole. Yes I can see there is room for improvement. I've never argumented otherwise. Let us hope the coming recode of the magic user guilds will be to everyones liking.
Lawful evil - conform or die.

Maizara

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Maizara » 09 Mar 2010 10:30

Oh I do want to add that my note was in no way saying Aquila cheated or playing the point the finger, it was merely an example. He bounced the shit out of us and was damn good chasing us down. I got away with a gem and Nikiel could finally run without having to worry about me. He was an excellent PvPer and caught us on his home ground.

I really wish I could find that log, it really was pretty Epic and the second best fight ive been in.

Chanele
Titan
Posts: 536
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Chanele » 09 Mar 2010 13:06

I would like to know that aswell, when they killed chanele they attacked and stunned her instantly and it sticked until death.
Very hurt to death, walkstun. Can I have?

Rhynox
Titan
Posts: 493
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Rhynox » 09 Mar 2010 13:54

hektor wrote:Aquila simply had bouncing down to an artform. He had the exact seconds on our offensive spells, so he was able to bounce a scop without taking even 1 spell of damage. I once wasted 6 mana levels on him and hardly getting a single spell. There are some downsides that spells have, which specials do not have. He is the single-most streetsmart playerfighter I have ever fought.
That shows the inconsistence of the magic system. If a mage begins casting a spell against you, you are done for. No matter how fast you can run away, the spell will always hit you, even if you are already back in your guild.

I remember something a ranger mentioned once (this was a year or two ago, so I am not sure if it is still this way): spells can be broken, but you need huge damage. A mage using his more damaging spell can easily break the concentration of a ranger trying to cast a spell. If it is still true, it means physical damage is not enough to break the concentration of a spellcaster.

And Aquila's technique reminded me of Abernomicon. When we fought he would sneak in and backstab me, prepare mattack and leave the room. I would move to his room, and his mattack would hit me immediately, he would then leave the room and sneak in again to backstab me. Hated that.

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 608
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Makfly » 09 Mar 2010 16:08

gorboth wrote:Perhaps the most difficult issue for the Administration is player conflict.
I can understand why the Admins are seeing PvP as a difficult issue, since it is one of Genesis' weakest points.
gorboth wrote:Something that I continue to wonder about is why the playerbase chooses not to agressively police its own borders.
I am a bit surprised that you wonder about this, though. I mean, it should be fairly obvious to anyone how unbalanced the PvP in this game is, let alone the Admin who are in the process of a major balance project.
The game is unbalanced in quite a few ways, most if not all, have already been brought up before, but I can take myself as an example. If I get killed by a resident Myth, I have problems in the following areas:

**The game is vastly unbalanced in terms of player levels. A hero going up against a Myth might as well not even try it.

**Guilds are certainly not balanced in PvP. Some guilds have a extreme advantage in killing other players. If you don't belong to such one, good luck getting even.

**Knowing other players that can do something, not to mention knowing some that wants to do risk doing something. Maybe it's just me who have few friends left, but with such a small population it could be/is a problem for quite a few people.

So basically I don't have the option of policing my borders, if you will.
Now I've never whined to the Admin when I get killed, but I surely have become pissed off like most everyone else.
So perhaps people might be mailing you out of a feeling of powerlessness, perhaps they are just whiners, but it's always a good idea to atleast consider why people might be complaining to you.
So kudos for atleast starting this topic. :)


I'd like to add a few words about PvP in Genesis in general.
Personally I just don't think PvP in Genesis is very interesting at all. Most kills, including the times I've been killed by Mages and Knights alike, are "ganks". There is not much of a "fight" in the usual kill. Total one-sided killings can really make people give up on this game.
Couple that with the imbalances previously mentioned, then PvP is good for creating a fear of getting killed, but the grief of actual getting killed certainly is not adding much enjoyment.

I like competitive gaming as much as the next guy, but when I want that kind of gaming experiences I go to games that can provide it in a much, much better form - mainly FPS (sometimes other MMORGPs).
The strong side of Genesis is, to me, the roleplaying quality, the depth of the lore and content, especially the amount of player-created content is something very few games can boast of, and to us that don't have Wiz-info, the mystery of the game still makes for a significant draw to the game.
Added ofcourse the history that I have with Genesis, though that sort of nostalgia is personal, and not something that can be used when trying to sell the game to potential players.

So, please try to balance the game and make the grief of PvP less than what it is now, but don't make PvP the prime focus of your efforts, because it's simply not a very strong point of the game.
Focus on the areas where the game is strong, when you have to sell/advertise the game, because the PvP issue probably won't draw in a big crowd and it won't help keep people around either. On the contrary if we are to believe all the drama that have come from PvP-deaths over the years.

edit: proofreading
Last edited by Makfly on 09 Mar 2010 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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Aeg
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Aeg » 09 Mar 2010 16:31

I must admit, my experience with other MUDs is limited. I would be interested to know how other games handle this issue. Anyone have any ideas from other games?

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