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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Earth » 09 Mar 2010 17:32

PvP has always been a touchy subject in the realms. I remember back in the day when I first started playing when there was a huge war going on. All the good guilds fighting all the bad guilds. I remember as a young knight back then joining in a player fight with allies against a group of vampires. Vampires would create darkness in the room, and Mystics would create light then try and block exits with their rainbow spell. Knights would rescue, Rangers would heal, Glads would berserk. Each guild had their own advantage or disadvantage. MM were king back then, but it was hard as heck to get into the guild. The Nazgul numbered 9 back then, so if you were part of the guild, you had to wait for someone to leave before you advanced. I remember one who advanced himself when a Nazgul met unfortunate death, only to be punished for his insolence. I remember those days, and recall them very fondly.

But then I think back and ask what has changed? PvP is much different these days. For very simple reasons...

1. Back in the days I rememeber, the playerbase was much larger. Those were the days of the queue, where only 100 players were limited. Any more and you had to queue. I remember some days when more than 20 players were waiting to enter the game. This large base means more players to team with, more players to fight against, and if you didn't want to PvP, you would hide in relative obscurity. Actually, usually those teams who wanted blood, would ask the smaller players to leave, as they would be in danger not only during the attack but also in the future (as a common courtesy).

2. Size differential. Max stats weren't as crazy large as they are today. This complaint isn't about the size itself, but the size differential it creates. This means a titan with descent equipment couldn't probably even scratch a well equipped myth today in one on one combat. This doesn't even begin to take into account the guild specials. Back then you could be a champ, and there would be always someone, or enough of someones to get together to kill you. Even Bebop, who was the insane mud addict, could be brought down with enough force. Monika from the day still had to be careful when hunting as she could be killed if she wasn't careful.

Today, the largest of the player killers are are few of the largest players in the game. Just their size alone makes it difficult to kill, and there are not many others who are of the same size that have the same vigor or desire to PvP. Then add the fact that they are very skilled in PvP. Their tactics make it harder to escape when they are trying to kill you, and make it harder to trap when you are trying to kill them. Lastly, add the occasional new guild ability or new weapon that makes them even more lethal, and you have a virtual I-win button.

Add to that the fact that there isn't much of an active player base, most of us won't be able to get a posse to track down and police them. Even then, with the small player base, if a player killer sees a huge group of goodies in the realms all out for their blood, they can simply leave or start playing a second char.

3. New guilds and abilities does create inequality in the realms, even for a short time. I used to play magic the gathering alot, but I got sick of it after a while. I saw that it was a virtual arms race created by the card makers to make you keep buying the cards. At first, they had the concept of flying. Creatures could only block creatures with flying with other creatures who could also fly. Then the next card set would have a fear ability, where creatures who had fear could only be blocked by other creatures with fear. So if you didn't have the latest card set, you would always be decimated by others who did.

When a new guild ability is added, and the counter abitilty isn't added at the same time, then this causes the situation I describe above. On top of all the disadvantages that are out there in PvP, usually its the most powerful players that get into these guilds and the most powerful players tend to get more powerful. Good or bad, it really doesn't matter. The inequality is created, and thus causes a problem.

Before balance was done between guilds, and to a certain extent it should, but in the rock, paper, scissors metaphor I've seen, rock is only countered when there is a paper around, and scissors only when rock is around. With our small playerbase, the chance that you will find a rock to help you when you are a paper being chased by scissors, is very slim. And thus another virtual i-win button.

I'm very wary of the new changes in magic coming up because of this fact. Those in the guilds with magic will decimate those without magic, until something can be done where non magical guilds can have a defence against magic without the aid of someone else with magical abilities. This is why MM have been so powerful since the beginning. The certain ability they have (trying to be nonspecific so I won't get edited) affects a whole area over a long period of time, for which there is only one resistance that the guild itself controls and the counter ability is contained in a guild with inactive players that can cancel the effect one player at a time. Hmm...seems like if one of them wanted to cause troubles, they could. They just wait until the game contains none of the counter guild in the realms, then attack.

I am not trying to pick on one guild. Most guilds have some kind of ability that they can use, but some are more counterable than others. I just wanted the admin to think about this. Having a counter ability in just one other guild is very limiting in the sense of balance because of our small playerbase.

Still, I believe that balance in a tricky thing, and the admin tries very hard to establish balance, but I believe in the end, until we can solve some other issues in the realms, true balance won't really be gained.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Rhynox » 09 Mar 2010 18:21

Aeg wrote:I must admit, my experience with other MUDs is limited. I would be interested to know how other games handle this issue. Anyone have any ideas from other games?
I used to play a couple, like Medievia and Gateway MUD. They split people between pfighters (they have (PK) attached to their name) and common ones. Pfights aren't actually frowned upon, and you can attack anyone anytime (but as soon as you does you get the PK mark for some time). I have never pfought, though, so I can't say what the penalty for dying in battle was, but from what I remember it was smaller than the penalty for dying a common death (actually, they have some kind of graded death penalties so that instant death rooms had very little penalty in experience, but dying against an opponent smaller than you had a big one).


Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 09 Mar 2010 20:02

Chanele wrote:I would like to know that aswell, when they killed chanele they attacked and stunned her instantly and it sticked until death.
Very hurt to death, walkstun. Can I have?

Actually you were in a bad shape, wearing half decent armours and no shield.

Add to that 2 ogres+1 AA of equal size/greater size than yours.

And the equation becomes rather clear, you cannot win ;)

Your painting yourself out to be the victim here, which I find rather amusing, how many people have
you not attacked and slain in the company of Fade?

Not to mention you were running around with a Flaming black broadsword, that alone for me as a Angoth
is reason enough to kill you...

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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Mersereau » 09 Mar 2010 20:33

I'm a little surprised a wizard started this conversation yet never provided any feedback.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

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Re: Playerkilling

Post by petros » 09 Mar 2010 21:18

Mersereau wrote:I'm a little surprised a wizard started this conversation yet never provided any feedback.
It's because we're so busy taking in the feedback and discussing it :) There will be some updates from Gorboth regarding some ideas that were tossed around. Stay tuned!

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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Bromen » 10 Mar 2010 00:47

I like what you've stated there Cherek. I, as a hero, will never attack anyone champion or above. The difference in size is just too much. I like taking risks (although Vinz's strategy for killing the balrog with 4 hero size players was a stretch) but I'd like some realistic chance of actually succeeding. I never pfight, because of my size, but I'm actually a big fan. I'd love some day to attempt an unheard of attack on a myth, let's say rhynox for fun, but I bet if he were naked and drunk I couldn't do more damage faster than he could naturally heal.

Like Cherek said, just not worth the risk.


Where's Tarax on all of this? Irk?


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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 10 Mar 2010 12:17

Heh, you called??

Basically i think..
  • Pkill / Pfighting good.
  • More warfare and avenues for those who want to fight to use up their energies.
  • Work on the death penalty further, recovery time based on size, hurts (time to recover) all equally regardless of brute.
  • More Tracking, Scrying and Blocking available

Player fighting is good. Its an essential part of the game.
There are players who enjoy it and there needs to be an avenue for them to fight each other.
I suggested a few teaming for warfare ideas on the other forum.
I don't think that others should get blanket protection.
There should be certain things in the mud which have an assoicated risk.

Players policing themsleves via a bounty hunting board ie Gorboths Posse idea, extra pkill tools available etc is a cool idea.

By the way Tarax isa very lawful character at the minute, not a big pfighter unless given a good reason *cough* excuse *cough*.
One of the last he fought was a SU Necromancer who was killing somewhere Tarax was meant to be protecting, warned him then fought him off. Chased him a bit the fight was very even and at the end in character mails were exchanged complimenting one another on the "dance" well worked. That is good mortal interaction and excitement.

Personally I enjoy the fighting but not necessarily killing the opponent. Fighting gets the blood pumping and adrenelin rush etc I don't feel a fight not ending in a kill is a failure as some seem to. But when you are Fighting someone and hunt them a mistake can happen easily and all go wrong for someone. If I have enough cause to attack someone I will likely take the kill if the oppertunity arises. But we all know dying is a major bummer and I have been worried in the past if I killed someone they would quit.

Need some bite in the death penalty to enable players to have others respect or fear them. A big scary warrior or mage isn't that scary is death means nothing.
Changes to the death penalty were welcome. HOWEVER THIS STILL HURTS HIGHER BRUTE PLAYERS MORE/ TAKES THEM LONGER TO RECOVER. So if there are 2 heros and one has done a lot more quests they will recover from a death much faster.. Thats stupid imo... Need a penalty based on size, equal for all. Also if you are a only QXP char death doesn't hurt at all... Thats also bad game design...

With mud clients maps etc everyone could have a go at autohunting triggers but this is against the rules... It should be equally against the rules to speedwalk out of combat ie say you get attacked in Sybarus caves and a second later you are in a safe room in Terel. Some might say it already is against rules but have you ever heard of anyone being punished for it???

You shouldn't be that put off Bromen by your size re someone elses.. If there are 2 or 3 heros and titans teamed in many situations they would be able to kill a single myth quite easily. There is not a huge difference between epic, imm and supreme stats, there is a huge difference in the effects of the equipment you can use. So if you have the uber gear and they don't you could hand them their ass.

Thats when people start crying bu hu I am a myth but I got beat up by a hero, but the generalisation doesn't tell the full story by a mile.

In terms of the tools we need to fight and hunt effectively.
Well its no news to anyone that this area is about as unbalanced as any in the mud.
Scrying, Tracking and Blocking more work needs done to create a balanced playing field.

Tracking is a skill not many people seem to use day to day but "track here" can be extremely useful for a pfighter who knows an area.
Herbs to raise tracking are not really viable with the herb changes, i'd say apart from a few lucky guilds its a bit of a lost art.
Craft guild, Npc trackers and dogs.

Scrying items exist
Some quest items (not just the scry club one), others in npc treasures. Can be very hard to get these, more of this type of thing available would be useful.

Really can't see how we can give this to certain guilds and not roll out a balancing effect available out to other people.
It was a game changer when guild X gets the ability to somehow stop you leaving combat.
If you are willing to take the time to prepare most things should be able to be countered or the effect reduced in severity.

For example, make it that you can't block what you cannot see so creating a smoke screen to escape block.

This sort of count is good game balance, but then if a player can carry 100 saving smoke screens to always nulify the ability it becomes poor balance once again. Enter the anti-smoke screen fan... heh

Tricky business dealing with these tricky players.
Join up and help each other with Quests :)

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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Bromen » 10 Mar 2010 13:37

Haha! Thanks Tarax. With the quality of teaming I've been getting lately, pkilling won't be a problem whenever it comes by.

I'm hearing rumors of a wizday coming soon. I can feel players chomping at the bit! lol


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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 10 Mar 2010 13:39

Join up and help each other with Quests :)


Re: Playerkilling

Post by Creed » 10 Mar 2010 14:39

I don't understand this huge need for pfights in the game.
Sure, it gives some people access to a thing they think is fun, but what about the rest of us?
I don't want to be the tool to which their fun in created.
I don't want my own fun to be ruined, because someone thinks its funny to attack and kill me.
To me, that kind of forcing others, should then be able for both parties.

I mean.. I should then be able to "tag" someone, and then they wouldn't be able to pfight for an hour.
That would be the opposite of them running and hunting me for an hour.
Or rather.. my tag should make them incapable of attacking anything at all.
For they do not only take away my fun, they also take away my option of playing the game as I want to.

I think its fine that some of you want to, and like the feeling when adrenaline is pumping.
But I don't like it. I don't think its fun or anything even remotely so.

Castaneda even had the "fun" way of calling people cowards, for not wanting to pfight.
I can't even see where that come from.

Should I be considered a coward, because I have other interests than you pfighters?
I don't call you crazy ass maniacs or phycopaths..
I might swear a whole lot, when you attack me, but thats about it.
Noone should be forced into anything they don't want to. As it is now, agressive players can run rampage and attack and kill whoever they like, as long as they don't do it more than once, to each person.
And what will we gain from that? Other, of course, than all those being totally pissed off, and eventually leaving.

Simply because they have to wish to collect a team to get back at the killer.
Ill rather just forget about it, since I don't like pfights in any way, and I won't feel more like it, because someone killed me.
Ill just absorb it, try to get back to the game I liked to play. And if it then happens again, Ill simply just walk away.
And in the end, that is what will happen.
Because the "police yourself" policy won't work.
Those people being killed won't take up the hunt, because most of them don't like it.

I believe it to be so, at least.

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