Playerkilling

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 10 Mar 2010 14:57

I agree that your side of the coin is just as valid here Creed.
People who are just out to ruin the fun of others are jerks and need to be withstrained.
There are people who want to do fight, people who want to avoid it totally and others who want to cherry pick the best of both worlds.

An infamous pkiller getting upset for being idle killed is like this, live by the sword die by the sword.
He has killed more than a few people (probably using every advantage) so has to expect getting attacked.

Someone complaining about being attacked and pkilled on the holm is BS. Everyone knows its a risky place, avoid it if your not cool with that.

Rhynox introduced us to the pac man model.. Not in tension all the time.
The model IMO works very well in aggressive and reasonably matched guilds with good leaders.
All members expect to be attacked, or at the least are on guard when in each others presence.
This affects the risks they take (sitting idle somewhere, afk forging etc)
The leaders want war more often than not but are mindful of the situation for smaller members.
Treaties are drawn up setting out where members can expect to be attacked.
Where they can consider safe etc.
BDA and Knights had such a treaty, RDA didn't and attacked knights everywhere at times.

For the bigger population I think if you want to be safe from pkill you should be able to do something to.
Provided you haven't pkilled anyone in X days/weeks.
Maybe pay a small amount of kill exp 5% tax for a protective aura.
Maybe this doesn't make you unkillable but makes it MUCH harder to be killed, blocked etc.

I believe some people have a old quest spell to create a safe room.
Re-open the quest or ditch the spell for everyone... Not very fair to have it for choosen people and not others.
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Sharn
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Sharn » 10 Mar 2010 15:00

Excellent post, Creed. I agree with most points.

Those who do not want to, should not be forced to fight other players.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 10 Mar 2010 15:14

The player attacking another player adds an edge to the game. Its a dangerous world, but even our world needs rules.
So I agree with you both in principle, but would hate to see the principle abused by a loud mouth or rude char who has no fear of being attacked.
Or from people running round the Holm saying YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!!

The warfare guilds cannot be included, and should have their own treaties.

Making wars on players guilds etc a more formal thing could add roleplay spice into the mix.
Declaration of war and the terms of the war.

Thieves having manifesto they will steal from any and all etc.

Perhaps you have to get a licence to kill unprovoked...
IE Daywatch and the license that vamps get to kill a victim.

Heh, I read the daywatch book or was it night watch, anyway it turned me off at first because the evil was all so lawfull...
Boring!! More chaotic evil appeals to many people, but when it gets guilds nerfed and closed and fills up wizards mailboxes with whines its place in the game looks shaky.

Its a tough one.
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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 10 Mar 2010 15:40

In terms of the game design, what other experiences do you have of PvP set-ups and rules.
Any good idea we could incorporate into our world?

For me Mafia wars was interesting, you could have a great time raiding other people.
The death penalty is almost non existant.
But still if you went over board you are likely to find yourself on the "Hitlist" where you are ceratin to die usually in minutes.

Age of Camelot.
You can be aggressive and raid others.
But by default they "Hide Troops in Sancturay" which would mean none are lost when you attack.
Changing this to "defend city" puts them at risk.
Players can also build up a storehouse to protect a certain amount of their resources from you being able to steal them.
So in effect players can make it pointless to attack them.

In Relams of Despair Mud you had to choose to be peaceful or a pkiller.
Only people who have choosen to be a pkiller can fight each other.
They also have access to more powerful healing potions etc making it possible to level them up much faster than a peaceful char.

Just brainstorming ideas for now.
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Makfly
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Makfly » 10 Mar 2010 16:39

Tarax the Terrible wrote:The player attacking another player adds an edge to the game. Its a dangerous world, but even our world needs rules.
So I agree with you both in principle, but would hate to see the principle abused by a loud mouth or rude char who has no fear of being attacked.
Or from people running round the Holm saying YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!!
Heheh, it's amusing to see that this arguement still persists.
It was the main (only) argument in the past, as to why people should be allowed to kill anyone (mainly newbies) regardless of their size without Admin repercussions, and it seems like it's still pulled out of the hat today.

But seriously...Have it _EVER_ been a problem?
Should it ever happen, can you not just go about your business regardless?
Report the character in question if it sprouts crap that is already against the rules and go about your day? (Racist remarks etc)
Ofcourse you can.

So please, if you want to make an argument for keeping things as they are, where you can kill anyone you like regardless, then don't pull that argument up again. It's old, and it's tired, and it's silly. There must be more reasonable arguments, right? :)
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Rhynox
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Rhynox » 11 Mar 2010 04:36

Those saying death penalty should be lowered haven't died lately. When you die, you lose a fifth of your experience, but your brute goes down to touchy or so. However, it is not actually touchy from what I see, but much lower. When the vampire team killed Rhynox (he was myth, dropped to legend) every three orcs in Faerun would give Rhynox a progress.

(Side note: Thanks to that death I could kill all kinds of NPCs and make a table in "Gont kargs" about how much experience each gives (like every lizard in Faerun giving as much experience as three kargs, each orc in Faerun giving as much experience as nine kargs, etc)).

On the first day of recovery I did I think 6 fantastic progresses. True, it becomes much harder on the second week, when you may spend all day and get a couple of fantastics, and on the last week of recovery you may get one fantastic in ten hours. The scale looks like logarithmic (?) so you recover probably 3/4 experience in 1/4 of the recovery time, and then spend 3/4 of the recovery time trying to recover the last 1/4. I think the recovery system is much better than previous ones (from what I was told, a monk of my size recovered in a week only). My complain about the system is that you are forgetting about people who don't have time, or that get too pissed off and take a break.

Recovery should be time based, not experience based. For example, when you die in a Counter Strike match, you must wait until the current game ends to join a new one. When you die in Quake, you must wait a time until you can join the game. So, if someone dies in Genesis, the system should start restoring the experience. What would happen if, once hurt, you could not heal? You get your health and mana back, so why not your experience?

Someone who dies could then take a break from his character, knowing he will automatically get 1/60 of the lost experience per day, and create a new one and play it for a couple of months. Once back, his original character is at full force again. Of course, if he wants he can grind his old character and the restoration will be faster, but if you don't have time (the issue with most of the myth-sized characters is that their players don't have the time to grind 12 hours per day to recover) you know that in two months your character will be at full strength again. And in the meantime he can experience something else with a new character.

The borest part of any game is the grinding, that is why there are so many bots in World of Warcraft and many others MMORPGs. So, why not let the system grind for you while you log in with your RP character and discuss about philosophy with a cleric in the roundabout?

Lindros

Re: Playerkilling

Post by Lindros » 11 Mar 2010 07:39

Actually this scares me to say, but I think Rhynox is onto something good...


The 1/60 thingy sounds like a good thing, altho I think it should be you get 1/60 per day you login, that way people will still login and keep the "habit"
at bay, cause alot of people if you do not play for 60 days, they lose intrest and stay away for many months more.


I do think its a problem that certain guilds can recover in 1 week while others have to spend 4-5 weeks(even with intensive grinding). But thats
a guild balance issue, not a death issue.

Gub
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Gub » 11 Mar 2010 10:02

I like that idea as well.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 11 Mar 2010 11:37

Makfly wrote:
Tarax the Terrible wrote:The player attacking another player adds an edge to the game. Its a dangerous world, but even our world needs rules.
So I agree with you both in principle, but would hate to see the principle abused by a loud mouth or rude char who has no fear of being attacked.
Or from people running round the Holm saying YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!!
Heheh, it's amusing to see that this arguement still persists.
It was the main (only) argument in the past, as to why people should be allowed to kill anyone (mainly newbies) regardless of their size without Admin repercussions, and it seems like it's still pulled out of the hat today.

But seriously...Have it _EVER_ been a problem?
Should it ever happen, can you not just go about your business regardless?
Report the character in question if it sprouts crap that is already against the rules and go about your day? (Racist remarks etc)
Ofcourse you can.

So please, if you want to make an argument for keeping things as they are, where you can kill anyone you like regardless, then don't pull that argument up again. It's old, and it's tired, and it's silly. There must be more reasonable arguments, right? :)
I guess that some characters like to be able to exude and atmosphere of menace, its crucial to their current roleplay and if they have their teeth pulled they will feel somehow powerless and unable to play their char.

For example, years ago I was passing through shire and discovered a room that was dark. I light an oil lamp and there is a human there who was very likely a vampire. Scary human says something along the lines of: "You shouldn't light dark places as you may not like what you find there!" My char thinks "Gulp" extinguishes the lamp and moves along.

If I was a peaceful char and couldn't be attacked my reaction would have been different because the fear is removed.
Muds I have seen where there is pkillers and safe have NEVER been roleplay muds. Its just a game.
Genesis is different, its more immersive and part of that is the danger of others. It gives the game an edge.
Work on recovery and policing and justice systems but can't remove the fear without radically changing the way the game is.
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cotillion
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Re: Playerkilling

Post by cotillion » 11 Mar 2010 12:11

Tarax the Terrible wrote: I guess that some characters like to be able to exude and atmosphere of menace, its crucial to their current roleplay and if they have their teeth pulled they will feel somehow powerless and unable to play their char.

For example, years ago I was passing through shire and discovered a room that was dark. I light an oil lamp and there is a human there who was very likely a vampire. Scary human says something along the lines of: "You shouldn't light dark places as you may not like what you find there!" My char thinks "Gulp" extinguishes the lamp and moves along.

If I was a peaceful char and couldn't be attacked my reaction would have been different because the fear is removed.
Muds I have seen where there is pkillers and safe have NEVER been roleplay muds. Its just a game.
Genesis is different, its more immersive and part of that is the danger of others. It gives the game an edge.
Work on recovery and policing and justice systems but can't remove the fear without radically changing the way the game is.
What makes situations like these interesting is the risk that someone might attack.
When all encounters with some player always results in an attack all the interesting dynamics go away.
WoW style PvP where red-is-dead applies is not fun for very long.

I think some of the uncertainty in encounters between guilds has disappeared, guilds and their players are very quick to make people kill-on-sight and pretty much all conflict quickly degrades into an all out war. That's unfortunate.
Perhaps we need a level of defeat other than death.
Have players drop their weapons while fleeing from an encounter perhaps? Lose experience?

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