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Spellcasting - Breaking Concentration and Balance 
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The problem is if you dont give spellcasters a higher DPS then fighters then what is the use in being one? To heal? ooooo...

Its going to be a problem no matter what, fighters can grind quicker and more efficient with less resources then a spellcaster can. If your going to tax them then you need to give them a boost in spells which I will place money on people will be screaming nerf once the first PvP kill comes along, even if you made them more worthless then a Calian Solo.

People dont care to factor in the preparation, herbs, EQ ect. You only see how the big guys play. If the spells arent boosted your basically giving the finger to the smaller guys. Not everyone can run around with thorns and tons of herbs. Mana goes quick and spells cant be used as much as people like Hektor can use them. Even my Elemental Spells which is just for a Layman can be a bit taxing on the mind and I have to use them only when they are really needed. Otherwise im just running around with my OCC guild.

Pure fighters get the benefits of both worlds as they dont have to worry about mana or more damage/evade as the layman covers it perfectly. I've been in a few spellcaster OCC and can honestly say unless your Hero+ it truly does suck. And even then you still need to prepare more. Not to mention Int/Wis? Pointless, your better off going Con/Dex with the way its set up now. So now your taking away from more Mana just to make sure you can evade more and take some hits.


10 Mar 2010 23:37
Titan

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
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From what I know, only the most powerful damaging spell in the game (I think we are all old enough to know which one I am talking about without having to mention it again) is able to break the concentration of another spellcaster. So, Lindros, two battering and two poundings can't break the concentration because, contrary to that unnamed spell, individually those poundings and battering don't do enough damage. I am just saying what I was told by a couple of spellcasters, not being a spellcaster myself I can be mistaken.

Petros, regarding your about fighters being able to break the concentration everytime making it unfair for spellcasters, it is true that they would be at a disadvantage. But the damage output of a spellcaster is (or at least, should be) by no means equal to the damage output done by warriors. In my ideal MUD, the mages should be devastating in the first four or five attacks (as they are now), but if the warrior manages to survive the attacks, the mage should flee because they would be out of arms. In the Dragonlance world, spellcasting extremely hard to achieve. A mage must study for hours to remember spells, and once cast the spell vanish from his memory (the more advanced the mage, the more times he can repeat it, like the weakest one being casted multiple times but the more powerful ones being casted only once per study). In the Earthsea realm, spells can be very powerful but are linked to the world, so a mage casting a sleep spell in a battle may trigger a devastating earthquake on the other side of the world.

So, there could be spellcasters that execute very powerful attacks in short bursts but then must regenerate (for example, a conjurer able to kill a Terel troll with a single spell due the high damage of the spell, but being able to cast that spell 25 times per hour, having then to study for an hour to remember it back). This way, in average, the spellcaster would need around the same amount of time a warrior needs to reach a fantastic progress, but using a very different approach.

There could also be spellcasters that can only cast assisting spells. They would be the "calians" of the spellcasters, not being able to kill anything alone other than orcs in Sparkle, but once in a team they could cast strenghtening and healing spells, haste and nightvision, darkness and light, force fields to protect the team, etc. Maybe even spells similar to the shieldwall I mentioned for neidars to protect the whole team. And these special mages, who are not able to cast attacking spells, would be safe from attacks: whenever someone (player or NPC) wants to attack him, the team tanker would put himself in the middle (like an automatic move behind). As long as they are in a team, they will die last.

Also, what about Earthsea-like mages where the spellcasters affect each other? For example, a wizard casting a spell will have a random effect in the next spell casted by another wizard from the same guild (it could become more powerful or weaker, consume more or less mana, etc). Or having a global mana for the whole guild which is recharged by their own members praying, and the members being able to cast spells as long as they have a tiny bit of mana and there is global mana (like Ashburz, who can cast his healing spell as long as he has at least a tiny bit of mana). This way we could consider spells as herbs, harvested by the whole guild members to be used by all. If there are no spells collected because nobody prayed, then nobody would be able to cast anything. Maybe even use some kind of "rack points" to prevent someone from using all the spells from the pool without praying for the others.

And there could be spellcasters that can join their powers to create more powerful spells (for example, a spellcaster that can cast lightning that does x damage to a troll, but between two spellcasters they can create a lightning that does 2x the damage), at the risk of increasing the chances of fumbling their spell and getting damaged.

Also, I agree with Lindros in that a spellcaster is not prepared for tanking, and should receive at least 2x the amount of damage a warrior gets (just like magical attacks should do only 1/2 the amount of damage it would do on a warrior).


11 Mar 2010 05:03
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Myth
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Makfly wrote:
Why does it seem like people automatically accept the premise that you should be able to interrupt a spell being cast in Genesis?

It's not like you can interrupt a special or a normal swing with a sword, so why should a magical means of doing damage be any different?


This is not unique to Genesis it is a concept that we are inherriting from magic systems used in other games.

And remember there are a lot of guilds that have defensive specials that have "interrupts" for standard melee damage as well as special attacks. Or reduction of the effect. Which is obviously VERY powerful for grinding or PvP. I am not talking about stuns. You should try getting a few various different people to fight you in the Arena to experiment more. You would be surprised..

On the resistance to magic side there are some ways to improve resistance to magic, but in most cases I would say these are VERY tame compared to what the anti melee (and melee specials) is doing. I think this fact is made worse by claims that not everyone using same magic system, some spells no resistance checks etc.

There is nothing so simple (that I know of) as being able to purchase an anti magic shell scroll.
Maybe if everything gets on to one system it will be easier for players to learn resistances and play with tactics. (Hopefully)
So there is a lot of work to be done in the magic recode.

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11 Mar 2010 11:16
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Myth
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Maizara wrote:
People dont care to factor in the preparation, herbs, EQ ect. You only see how the big guys play. If the spells arent boosted your basically giving the finger to the smaller guys.


Components etc are seen as a balancing factor.
However the "big guys" may be at a stage in the heirarchy of their guild that they don't have to worry much about that any more as they have underlings (who are keen to please) only to willing to spend extra time and gather components for them. Or they may have shops etc stuffed to bursting already.

Should everyone have to prepare all components themselves and they be non-transferrable? NO..

But should the balance of the guild rely on component gathering being a factor to slow the fun.. Hell NO..
Need to have physical barriers like a poison effect or cool down timer if they are proposing something as limited in an equation that is justifying a balance.

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11 Mar 2010 11:25
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Titan

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Tarax the Terrible wrote:
And remember there are a lot of guilds that have defensive specials that have "interrupts" for standard melee damage as well as special attacks. Or reduction of the effect. Which is obviously VERY powerful for grinding or PvP. I am not talking about stuns. You should try getting a few various different people to fight you in the Arena to experiment more. You would be surprised..

Pretty true, the Angmarin are really powerful with their [moderator: guild specific abilities removed], so where the vampires with their quick movements.

There is a famous scene in Dragonlance where Dalamar (an evil mage) and Kitiara fight in the Tower of Palanthas. Mages are not able to cast both offensive and defensive spells at the same time, so he keep his force shield up while Kitiara kept on throwing things at him (books, vases, lamps, etc) to force him to keep the shield up. In the end (since casting offensive spells took time and Kitiara was in front of him) he had to dispel his shield, pick a magic wand and use it to attack Kitiara, when she attacked him with her sword.


11 Mar 2010 14:20
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If PvE were the only consideration, we could create mages who have devastating one-shot powers with a fair amount of impunity. The trouble comes in when PvP comes into play. The playerbase, I imagine, would be able to accept the idea of a mage preparing for many hours, gathering a team of tanks to protect them, entering Moria, and killing the Balrog with 5-10 powerful spell attacks. The problem happens when the same mage is able to use these powerful spell attacks against the most powerful melee players in the game, making them feel rather powerless to protect themselves other than by running.

It remains a seemingly unsolvable issue, in terms of making everyone happy.

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11 Mar 2010 20:07
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gorboth wrote:
If PvE were the only consideration, we could create mages who have devastating one-shot powers with a fair amount of impunity. The trouble comes in when PvP comes into play. The playerbase, I imagine, would be able to accept the idea of a mage preparing for many hours, gathering a team of tanks to protect them, entering Moria, and killing the Balrog with 5-10 powerful spell attacks. The problem happens when the same mage is able to use these powerful spell attacks against the most powerful melee players in the game, making them feel rather powerless to protect themselves other than by running.

It remains a seemingly unsolvable issue, in terms of making everyone happy.



So make spells make a check for mortal or npc ;)?


I agree tho, I do not have an issue with a magic user spending hours to gather the right components and the right team and taking
out a major npc, but I do have issues with magic users packing damage/heal/movement control/scry/tanking abilities.


11 Mar 2010 20:49
I'm going to step in and hijack this briefly and ask Petros why he has made quite an effort to edit most of Lindros's posts revealing specific guild abilities yet Rhynox has been free to say much about whatever guild he wants even to go so far and say

Quote:
Pretty true, the Angmarin are really powerful with their [moderator: guild specific abilities removed]


Just wondering.


11 Mar 2010 20:58
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Lindros wrote:
I agree tho, I do not have an issue with a magic user spending hours to gather the right components and the right team and taking
out a major npc, but I do have issues with magic users packing damage/heal/movement control/scry/tanking abilities.

I completely agree. Good thing there are no guilds that can do all of these at the same time anymore.


11 Mar 2010 21:00
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petros wrote:
Lindros wrote:
I agree tho, I do not have an issue with a magic user spending hours to gather the right components and the right team and taking
out a major npc, but I do have issues with magic users packing damage/heal/movement control/scry/tanking abilities.

I completely agree. Good thing there are no guilds that can do all of these at the same time anymore.



Hah, you played the game recently ?

I will have to disagree.

There's 1 guild out there who have all these abilities, then 1 more guild that has all except 2.


11 Mar 2010 21:01
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