Interesting with Brawl

[Makfly]

Some thoughts on Cabal:

1. You can have good align there but your skills drop to sup layman (at least that's what I remember)
2. It's one of the best layman guilds in my opinion
3. Why the hell are you judging every single guild in terms of combat aid? Not every guild out there is made with combat as it's primary focus. And if you didn't know, Cabal of Hiddukel is called thieves and not assasssins. Why do you expect them to have something even remotely useful in combat?

I've always regarded backstab as a cool way to start a fight, preferably with fatigue poison. It fulfilled this role very nicely. Nothing less, nothing more.
But I guess that in this "Era of Powerplay", stuff that's cool but doesn't give you huge combat aid isn't trendy any more...

If it's one of the best layman guilds, then could you describe why you think this?

If I could choose an archetype for my character, I'd choose a rogue.
So I was thrilled to try the Merc/Cabal combo, but it is not much fun to be honest. The things that the Cabal can do, that others cannot, is not useful, because the game is not coded for it.
Pick Locks...There are extremely few useful places to use this in the game. Actually I can't really come up with any that is anywhere near cool.
Pick Pocket...Ehm, yea. Not much you can steal really but pennies from NPC's and a few things off players, if they didn't all run around with waaay high Awareness skill, that is.
Backstab...Sure it's a cool way to start a fight, if it actually did any decent damage, especially with maxed out Guru skills it's still pretty pathetic.
AutoSneak/Hide...Cool to sneak around, if it weren't for the fact that the game has been fairly sneak-proofed and most players run around with high enough Awareness skill to see you anyway.
Poison...I don't know why people keep talking about poisoning like it's a Cabal ability. Anyone can use poisoned weapons, and most can use them just as good or better!

It's all fine and dandy that you think starting combat with a backstab for mininum damage is all it takes to "fill a role very nicely", but seriously, I expect more than that.
I don't expect the Cabal to be a combat guild, I just expect the Cabal to be remotely useful.
Which it isn't. It has nothing to do with "powerplaying" or whatever, it's all about usefulness and fun.

Again, I'm quite interested in hearing what makes you think this one of the best layman guilds in the game.

[Tarax the Terrible]

Agree with Makfly here. And it is sort of on topic since Rangers are rougish too and brawl is ultimate rogue special.
For the rogue you want to be able to give up some out and out hack and slash damage for the ability to screw up the dumb fighters day with a few nasty tricks.
The surprise attack backstab or brawl being the typical rogue attack.
Sneaking and stealing being rouge skills as well.

I just think the thieves get a raw deal and have seen a huge decrease in popularity since more layman choices became available.
Used to "see" AA and DA thieves about a lot.
We are not all power playing monsters just because we decide to keep up with the arms race and get a good amount of help from our layman slot.
Sure maybe a few roleplaying styles had to be adapted and back stories re-written. But I have not know that many to make use of the thief roleplay, may because its a secret society I am not a part of that was exactly the intention.

Knives are a pain if you not have dual wielding and the skill.
Thats why I thought throwing them would be cool.
Give all the rogues high missile weapons skill.

It is cool the rangers can use bows, as this is another very roguish weapon.
Perhaps in future will be one ranger blind you + two on bows to hit for a coordinated backstab like attack, ie they auto shoot when the blind hits.

Rogues are a pain in the ass for us dumb fighters, They have no sense of "Stand honourably still so I can split you in half!" but that is the way its meant to be.

Bouncing however is a big pain and rather cheaty IMO. Bad enough the rogue can blind you or otherwise negatively effect or start with bonus damage. This should be enough for a while to balance things for a nice bit of a fight at least. Not something to use on rinse and repeat and give the big dumb fighter no chance at all. Yes the big dumb fighter types (me) are crying because nasty rouges not playing fair. (I doubt anyone that plays a rogue like character would shed any tears to that however)

Oh yeah I talk about poisons as a thief skill because back-stab I thought was one of the only reliable ways to start a fight with a poison hit.
And most poisoned weapons are knives.
But as you say it is a pretty weak case.. A SU or Merc using poisoned weapons would be better over full fight.

[Laurel]

Laurel as to your note about the Saya spirit.

My response? Well since your cloaks give so much anonymity its hard to really tell who is who when I stumble across a ranger. And since you did not think about the repercussions of what your actions could be, plain and simple, my action is to just attack any ranger on sight. Since I am not a member of a ME guild, the restriction you want me to uphold of only fighting in ME I could really give two shits about. So you made an oops, and if you and your guildmates now have to deal with it, then its on your head, not mine.

deja vu? hello, Saya - namechanged recently I see looking for excuses to attack great adventurer guild applicants

[Tive]

http://gr.vc/vuvuzela/

[Rhaegar]

@ Makfly and Tarax:
Some ideas on why CoH can be a good guild.

1. Keyring - I was using it all the time, very useful stuff.
2. Pick lock/pocket - pretty neat at times, especially during questing.
3. Find and remove traps - used it a couple of times, nothing special though (Gen needs more traps that are harder to avoid)
4. Sneak & Hide + autosneak - always nice to have, doesn't matter if it's not superior guru, it's a layman guild after all, especially that it works great on NPC's and with glad or merc combo added you have the best bouncing capabilities ever.
5. Good trading skills - also nice to have, not everyone is a Neidar or a smith you know.
6. Roleplay - yeah, you can roleplay it pretty nicely. Just look at Wulfhere and Elita in RDA some time ago, forming a Covert Operations unit, a lot of fun and fluff, especially with support from the General and HOs, who gave them additional titles to reflect that.

Ask not what a guild can do for you, ask what you can do for it.

@ Ilrahil:

Please... Rhaegar being a lowly pupil, harmlessly doing tasks in Earthsea, you see him and attack without any warning. I will save you this this time, but the next time something like that happens to him or other character less than half your size, and you're gonna get reported. I wonder how AoP and BDA general, whoever he is now, will react to your 'vampire mentality' excuses...

[Ilrahil]

Laurel as to your note about the Saya spirit.

My response? Well since your cloaks give so much anonymity its hard to really tell who is who when I stumble across a ranger. And since you did not think about the repercussions of what your actions could be, plain and simple, my action is to just attack any ranger on sight. Since I am not a member of a ME guild, the restriction you want me to uphold of only fighting in ME I could really give two shits about. So you made an oops, and if you and your guildmates now have to deal with it, then its on your head, not mine.

deja vu? hello, Saya - namechanged recently I see looking for excuses to attack great adventurer guild applicants

Laurel calling me Saya does not affect me, seeing as how the player behind her is one of my friends.

You can try mudslinging. However,

Fact 1: You attacked me first.
Fact 2: You stole a weapon from me.
Fact 3: I won't just sit and ignore it.
Fact 4: A ranger who I did not know crossed paths with me in gont.
Fact 5: He got attacked and unfortunately got away because of your foolishness.

So... if you want to keep going feel free to, but you got yourself into it, stop blaming me.

[Ilrahil]

Also looking for excuses to attack them? I have not hunted any ranger that has gotten away. I've merely attacked. If I was going to kill GA's of your guild I'd be actively pursuing people like Raergar and Maizara but I'm not.

[Makfly]

@ Makfly and Tarax:
Some ideas on why CoH can be a good guild.

1. Keyring - I was using it all the time, very useful stuff.
2. Pick lock/pocket - pretty neat at times, especially during questing.
3. Find and remove traps - used it a couple of times, nothing special though (Gen needs more traps that are harder to avoid)
4. Sneak & Hide + autosneak - always nice to have, doesn't matter if it's not superior guru, it's a layman guild after all, especially that it works great on NPC's and with glad or merc combo added you have the best bouncing capabilities ever.
5. Good trading skills - also nice to have, not everyone is a Neidar or a smith you know.
6. Roleplay - yeah, you can roleplay it pretty nicely. Just look at Wulfhere and Elita in RDA some time ago, forming a Covert Operations unit, a lot of fun and fluff, especially with support from the General and HOs, who gave them additional titles to reflect that.

Ask not what a guild can do for you, ask what you can do for it.

I had my hopes up for a list of concrete, useful reasons from an experienced Cabal member, but I was a bit disappointed to be honest.

Keyring - Useful, no doubt. But there are not many keys that can't just be gotten easily each armageddon.
Pick pocket & Pick lock - "Neat while questing"...? I'd say useless 99% of the time. I'd like to see you come up with a list of 10 situations where you can use Pick lock and Pick pocket while questing, to do something you couldn't just accomplice without the 2 skills.
Find and Remove traps - Let's not even waste time on that.
Autosneak/Hide - Best bouncing capabilities ever?? What..? Go get backstab to work while bouncing now, and let us know how it is the best bouncing capabilities ever. To bounce normal specials you don't need autosneak, just go in and out like everyone else.
Trading - Now you're just grasping at straws!
Roleplay - Sure. You are a member of a secret Cabal, of which you are never to reveal your membership... It can assist in some roleplaying, but for 10% tax, you're better off just roleplaying whatever you want, without having to actually be a member of something you have to keep secret anyway.

Ask not what a guild can do for you, ask what you can do for it.

What is this supposed to mean in this context?

[Rhaegar]

Keyring - Useful, no doubt. But there are not many keys that can't just be gotten easily each armageddon.
Pick pocket & Pick lock - "Neat while questing"...? I'd say useless 99% of the time. I'd like to see you come up with a list of 10 situations where you can use Pick lock and Pick pocket while questing, to do something you couldn't just accomplice without the 2 skills.

Autosneak/Hide - Best bouncing capabilities ever?? What..? Go get backstab to work while bouncing now, and let us know how it is the best bouncing capabilities ever. To bounce normal specials you don't need autosneak, just go in and out like everyone else.

Roleplay - Sure. You are a member of a secret Cabal, of which you are never to reveal your membership... It can assist in some roleplaying, but for 10% tax, you're better off just roleplaying whatever you want, without having to actually be a member of something you have to keep secret anyway.

That's why I believe some of this things are useful. Keyring and pp/pl are there so you don't have to waste your time on finding and or killing stuff (especially useful when you want stuff from something you can't kill).
Autosneak bouncing might not be so well now, but back in the day it was the most annoying and frustrating way to pfight.
Roleplay... Well, if every guild you join has to be perfectly balanced in abilities/tax ratio and have all the things you'd like it to have, then please, by all means, keep on dreaming. I'll keep joining guilds that seem useless and overtaxed but I enjoy just being there (ie: CoH, HotV, Glads, Archers etc.).

[Ilrahil]

And please Rhaegar by all means report me for it. If I'm going to be attacked for being an outlaw by your guildmates then I'm going to attack members of the guild I see.