re: Wolverine

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gorboth
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Location: Some old coffin

re: Wolverine

Post by gorboth » 29 Aug 2011 17:14

Hi Wolverine,

I really do appreciate your helpful attitude towards our new players. That is
just excellent! However, I think there is a danger in simply giving massive
handouts to people. Let me explain what I mean with an example.

When I was a young player, I would spend literally hours in the gibberer
cairn which was near Faerie and then running to the nearby (in those days)
Solace to sell all the knives I had gotten for 50 or so silver coins. The
feeling of satisfaction was immense when I would take these hard earned coins
to the centaur instructor and improve my combat skills. It felt great to be
able to train myself up like that! So fun!

The above example shows how enjoyable the game is for players who are given
the natural opportunity to accomplish their own goals, earn their own money,
and get their own experience. Compare this now to a completely different
scenareo.

New player Gorbonk walks into Sparkle for the first time, and heads over to
the Adventurer Guild. Lo and behold! 10,000 silver coins are sitting in a
group of huge piles on the ground! Yes! Train train train. Great sword skill
now. Oh look, here is a myth team offering to get me on their team. Awesome!
Hmmm ... these qualinesti elves sure are dying fast. Too bad I can't attack
them. But ... wait ... I'm already a wanderer! Oh, the team dropped me off
in Sparkle. Okay ... lets explore. Hmm all these orcs are dying so fast. This
game is easy. Kinda boring actually ... hmmm ... I don't really know what I'm
supposed to be doing ...

What I'm trying to illustrate with the above example is the idea that doing
*all* the work for a new player might risk robbing them of the actual enjoyment
and satisfaction that is felt when you accomplish things on your own. Now, I
am well-aware that there are many different kinds of people in the world, and
for some the "do it yourself" method might just be far less satisfying than
just having everything handed to you. But I do believe these players are not
the normal sort we will get. Rather, I think most people enjoy a good
challenge, and a game is the most fun if you actually have to "score your own
points" so to speak. If someone just does all your moves for you, and raises
your hand as the winner, is that really fun?

Food for thought. :-)
G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Amberlee
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Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Amberlee » 30 Aug 2011 02:03

I agree with Gorboth here.
"Powerleveling" new players like that reminds me of a saying you all know.
Where the road paved with good intentions go et cetra.

And it takes away some of the exploration fun AND gives them too high expectations of leveling up fast too.

I know where Wolverine is comming from though, cause i tend to take newbies on a powergrind trip aswell to rack up EXP fast :p
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Laurel

Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Laurel » 30 Aug 2011 09:04

In other words: help them as best as you can is not really the best option, if the helper is a power-player :twisted:

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Wolverine
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Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Wolverine » 30 Aug 2011 12:10

To speak methaphorically..

Imagine if Bill Gates would go out on the street of Los Angeles, pick up 500 people that live on the street and give them housing, work and cash. :twisted:

Would he be called a spoiler or a hero? should they work their own way up to the regular life?

Not comparing newbies to bums, but i gladly help people a little bit that are in need of it.

It doesnt have to be 2000 platinums and 50 fantastics.. it can be 2000 silver coins and a little adventure with an rp touch.. it doesnt spoil anything for them..

I have recieved mails from these individuals, which satisfied my day and their

What if you would recieve a certain amount of silver/gold/platinum and a random imbue stone each time you make a new mortal level.. balanced to whats needed at that stage of the game..

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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Alorrana
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Location: Mordor. passing gass.

Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Alorrana » 30 Aug 2011 12:43

There is no really right way or book to go after, in helping people. I think what Wolver does is great and it helps newcommers alot. Because as small, the hardest thing is to get coins, Growth is fairly easy..

So if you help. You help, and its a good thing. Only thing we have to take care of is not making it TO easy to grow and level up. Basically NO POWER LEVELING. but raising a wandere to adepts brings no harm.

As long as the help comes with good rp and adventures for the small folks, its great. :)

Cheers
I’m not a complete idiot. Some pieces are missing.

Makfly
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Makfly » 30 Aug 2011 13:53

When I started out back in 95/96, I had friends help me out, both helping me do quests (giving me quest solutions or directly running me through some) and I had friends give me some money.
That certainly didn't spoil me, nor did it ruin my game experience. Rather it improved my entertainment, and vastly improved my chances of sticking around. I felt the sweet taste of progress and avoided a good bit of frustration.

These days intentional frustration has all but left game design, and that is for the better. Very, very few players is going to find it fun to wander around an ancient text game, trying to not only understand the game and whats going on, but also struggling just to just taste a little bit of progress.

These days Genesis have to compete with TONS of computer games, many of which are also cheap/free, much more engaging and gratifying. Computer games are no longer "serious business".
Most players have no intention of starting out of difficulty level Hardcore, and devote half their life to beating a game.
Since there are so many other offers around, many of which is in many (not all) regards vastly superior to Genesis, I think it is important that we adapt to the reality around us.
Most stick around because they are entertained, not because they have a grim determination to beat the game no matter the frustration it may block their path with.*

So I think this "make it harder!" philosophy is detrimental to the expansion of the player in todays world.
Sure, dumping 10000 silver in a donation box is not the best way to help new players along, but in the absence of being able to grab hold of a new player and interact and help him/her, I don't think it's a crime to help in the passive sense.



*In the same sense that most probably don't find it that much fun to play the quest syntax guessing game
"throw ring in lava" - what?
"drop ring in lava" - what?
"toss ring in lava" - what?
"throw ring in lava stream" - what?
Oh, ofcourse!
"destroy ring" - what?
Grr!
"destroy the one ring by throwing it into mount doom" - Yay, you saved Middle Earth! You feel more experienced!
I'm DONE solving quests without solutions... :o)
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Uther
Great Adventurer
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Joined: 11 Aug 2010 12:51

Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Uther » 03 Sep 2011 23:22

Helping newbies is a good thing. Giving them a few amount of money as well I don't mind.

Draggin them around a bit I don't mind either. But it is a difference between a true newbie and a second.
As a player you will notice it at once. :)



The quest syntaxes can be coded passed..

Just report the rooms/items and it will be fixed. I think if your command match the $ it can have options as well

I agree syntaxes sucks..
All comments are made by the player behind Uther, NOT THE CHARACTER UTHER!

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Recoba
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Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Recoba » 04 Sep 2011 10:40

"Give a man fire and he's warm for a day. Teach him to make fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."

(or just set fire to him - then he'll also be warm for the rest of his life).

In short, I agree with Gorboth here.

Ashur
Apprentice
Posts: 40
Joined: 17 Aug 2011 23:22

Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Ashur » 06 Sep 2011 21:22

Perhaps this is, in essence, what has been said already. Here is the paradox I find myself in when contemplating starting a new character:

In order to grow, you need money.

In order to make money, you need to kill things.
In order to kill things, you need to train skills.
In order to train skills, you need money.

I understand we can't just give new characters money ... I'll create a trigger to create new characters in seconds, ship the money off to a friend, rinse and repeat. So, why not give each new character a certain amount of "skill points." These points can be put into a certain sub-set of available skills ... ones that will be useful to a new character like knife, swim, climb, etc. These 'skill points' are non-refundable, think about what you're going to do, maybe tell the new guy why swim is a good thing to have to avoid "What? Swim? Why would I want to swim when I could kill people better?"

The free newbie boat rides are great, and really help in the early levels. There are some starting quests, if I remember correctly, that require you to buy some stuff ... Argos comes to mind. Perhaps these sorts of purchases could either be "Oh, hey there little guy/girl, tell you what...it's on the house, this time." or the quest master returns any coins spent on quest items as a "Thank you for your help."

This way, we're still helping out the new guy. But, at the same time, we're not auto-piloting them through the first few mortal levels.

On another note, I absolute hate the syntax war. 'Dig here' - what? 'Dig hole' - Dig what? Etc, etc, etc.

Greneth

Re: re: Wolverine

Post by Greneth » 06 Sep 2011 23:56

Have any of you actually gone through the new character process or fully tested the new content without running through it?

Just out of the island send the character to the cadets, first floor of orc dungeon is easy for any new character except for the group of 8 runts those can hurt or be easy depending on how much your carrying.

One full load brings about 300+ silver with a backpack and that's just the first floor more depending how far you go down, second floor yields the most I think. And that only gets higher the bigger you get.

Second floor can yield 3+ prog levels while clearing the 3rd can give you a fant alone if you kill the high priest.

I'd say its rather easy for newbies now, far as helping them the only other thing I would like to see because I can't remember seeing it or maybe I just overlooked it... is a person, or pop up message of some sort that comes by and directly tells you to go to calia and join the cadets along with directions and directions to the newbie dungeon.

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