Death lost the bet!

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gorboth
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Death lost the bet!

Post by gorboth » 13 Nov 2013 09:30

Code: Select all

Whoa ... 

Well, I guess life never fails to yield surprises, but even so I didn't
expect this! Fellow Donut Dwellers, I've got some fairly interesting news
to share with all of you. But first ...

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: (provided for those who hate long explanations)
=========================================================================
    1. If you die, you no longer lose any exp for until the New Year.
    2. For more information, rationale, etc. read the FAQ below.
========================================================================

I guess the first thing to let you in on, which probably (and sadly) won't
be a surprise to you, is the fact that Death is a bit of a lush. And, when
he's had about his fifth martini, he gets really cocky, and really REALLY
bad at cards. I think that's probably the only thing that really explains
this one. But, well, we all know the rivalry that has existed all these
years between him and Lars. Speaking of Lars ...

So I heard that crazy outburst that some of you might have caught from
Death, and made my way over to the wizard's lounge. Sure enough, there was
Lars sitting there with a crazy grin on his face. He's usually pretty
quiet, but this time he couldn't stop laughing about what had happened.
Evidently, he got Death so drunk that Death actually wagered his own
penalty on a terrible hand. When Lars won the hand, Death didn't really
realize what had happened at first, but then drunkenly tried to weasel
his way out of the bet. Lars isn't the sort to let that slide, though,
so ... well ... here's the news:

For the rest of 2013, there will be no exp loss at death. None at all!
I really don't know what this will all mean, but I guess we'll find out.
I've sort of been curious what might happen if we ever tried this, but I
never had the guts to actually set it in motion. Heh ... who'd have thunk
Death himself would fumble so badly we'd see it naturally occur!

Anyway ... this has pretty huge rammifications for everyone. I'll let you
all experience that for yourselves, but I'll also provide a bit of a FAQ
below to get some answers out there.

IMPORTANT: You will need to relog for this to work for you unless you
           are reading this after the Armageddon that follows this
           post. I'm not going to restore you if you don't read this.

Cheers, and enjoy your stats until the New Year!
G.

==========================================================================
          (Presumed) Frequently Asked Question's to the Above
==========================================================================

Q: Wait. You mean the death penalty is gone?
A: It is, insofar as loss of exp. The penalties now are more along the
   lines of natural things like loss of gear, loss of pride, and loss
   of yourself in the battle, if you are part of a team.

Q: Whoa. You mean Genesis doesn't have a death penalty anymore? Seriously?
A: Well, this is sort of an experiment. We'll see if it makes the game 
   more fun with this 2(ish) month trial period. It should give us lots
   to try out, think about, etc.

Q: But ... but ... what if I die by questing? Is this only pvp death or?
A: All deaths are the same here. PvE deaths and PvP deaths are both just
   not going to hurt anyone's stats. A lot of thought went into this due
   to the (possibly good) idea of simply having PvP deaths result in no
   exp loss. But, players are really clever, and it would just be a matter
   of time before the cleverest ones found ways to trigger PvE deaths
   against their opponents in a fight to give their enemies the penalty.
   So, we're just keeping it simple and making all death's free of exp
   loss for the time of the experiment.

Q: Wait, so you mean questing just became totally not dangerous?
A: Right. For the trial period, you can go be a total idiot trying to
   get the golden scabbard, or walk around the Isle of the Dead, and
   not worry about the consequences. Have fun.

Q: I hate this! I'm quitting! This is the stupidest thing I've ever
   seen the wizards do!
A: Err ... well, its not the new deal. This is just a trial. Now, of
   course, if the majority of the players *do* love it, and it really
   enlivens the game, creates a fun and thriving PvP situation, and
   brings more players to regular activity, we will definitely consider
   making it permenant.

Q: But this totally ruins roleplay! Now you can just spit in the face
   of the biggest, scariest player in the game, and s/he can kill you,
   and you don't care, and you spit in his/her face again and again and
   again.
A: Yeah. This is my least favorite potential. The reason I've
   waited so long to try something like this is this exact fear. I
   don't know if the tradeoff will be worth it or not. I guess we'll
   find out.

Q: Whoa, dude ... wait. Wait. WAIT! What about people who want to
   do the whole mass-suicide thing to re-spec their stats or get
   themselves ready for a swift guild-exp glory-fest? Now they
   can't do that? We're stuck with our stats where they are?
A: Visit the Adventurer's Guild in Sparkle, and check out the
   attic. Death isn't an idiot, you know, and he sobered up pretty
   quickly.

Q: And what about griefing? Now does this mean that you can just be a
   total psychopath and run around killing anyone you want, and not
   get punished for it?
A: There will be no change to the policy on griefing. Killing a player
   over and over and over or making their life hell beyond reason in
   a way that continuously ruins the game for them will never be
   welcome in Genesis. While we try to set some clear guidelines on
   this, common sense will always be the best rubric in policy
   enforcement. Getting legalistic and lawyer-ish with such things
   as this as an excuse to be a jackass will result in you being
   inserted into the buttocks of the dragon of Ribos.

Q: So what was the reason for this test? What makes you want to
   try it?
A: I've been monitoring the pvp logs for many years. We have logs
   of every time a player attacks another player. We have logs of
   every time a player kills another player. These logs have been
   gradually dwindling to the point where pvp is almost entirely a
   thing of the past. Most players don't need to be told this, as
   they know it better than I do. The reasons behind the shift are
   many, and likely complex. There are many theories and opinions
   as to the cause, most of which are based on personal experience.
   In my opinion, the two biggest issues are these:
       - The cost of losing in pvp outweighs the rewards of winning.
       - There is too great a perceived (and possibly real) imbalance
         between certain guilds.
   These two realities mean that pvp feels unfair and unfun for 
   many players. Because we are mid-stream in a global balancing
   recode process, there are issues that we can only hope to resolve
   once we see the balance play out in pvp. But, if players find that
   process so painful that it makes them want to give up, we aren't
   going to end up any place we want to. Removing the death penalty
   is a very simple thing that we can do that has high impact on
   these problems, hopefully in a way that makes things easier and
   more fun. By the way, that concept - "fun" - is something that
   pvp in Genesis used to involve. I don't know if we can get back
   there with such a simple twist as this, but we won't know unless
   we try. So ... here goes.

Q: Come on, Gorboth ... be honest. Did you just implement this change
   as a reaction to some of the recent pvp that has caused people to
   get angry, leave the game, light up the forum flameboards, etc?
A: Somewhat, sure! Being aware of current events and responsive
   to serious issues is an important aspect of being a responsible
   wizard. However, it needs to be understood that much of what has
   transpired on the flame boards on the Official Forum have been
   *extremely* standard flame material - highly charged, emotional,
   based more on impulse than fact, and not particularly intelligent
   (my own contributions included!) That being said, information is
   information, and even the craziest flame threads will contain
   important kernels of truth that are important to consider and
   remain aware of. I really do think we've got a situation right now
   where the fact that some guilds have been recoded, and not others,
   and some are well-designed in anticipation of a global reality that
   does not yet exist are potent and essential considerations. BUT!
   The other thing I will say and say loudly is that this is something
   I have wanted to try for about 6 years. The recent events just
   tipped the scales and so we're going for it.

Q: So ... what if it totally fails, and everyone hates it?
A: Yeah, it might suck. If it does, we go back to what we've had, or
   maybe try a different experiment. Pvp is an important thing to get
   right.

Q: What do you even mean by that? How do you get pvp right?
A: Well, in my favorite games, I have fun both when I win and when I
   lose. If you can make both still fun, you've got great pvp.

Q: You're crazy.
A: Good. Come kill me if you can.

Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Draugor
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Draugor » 13 Nov 2013 16:12

With recovery XP death from death aint a problem tbh, thats not what people are protesting :P Hell xp loss is good due to gstat

Windemere
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Windemere » 13 Nov 2013 17:53

Well, I certainly am interested to see what effect this has.

What I think would be an interesting addition to this concept would be a way of benefiting from participation in PvP. This, I believe, is what makes PvP in most other games I play fun. For a minute, let us ignore that PvP in other MMORPGs and other games like COD is quick. You die and kill often. That is not the way genesis is designed and not the way I think any of use would like it designed.

One thing I believe that may work here is the point/reward system. For participation in PvP whether you win or lose could gain you points. Tokens, a type of currency. If you win, then you can go claim them. If you lose then Death gives you yours. Or some such system.

This currency could then be saved to buy rewards. Whatever they might be, I do not know. It is just an idea.

Back on the subject at hand here though, I, personally, feel this is a good change. It will allow people to participate in "wars" again without the loss. I know that there are many who consider the loss to be nothing serious, however, they have the opportunity and time and ability to grind it back. Some of us don't. Therefore death is a long recovery process. This will allow those folks to participate in wars and pvp as well without the loss.

I think the experiment will be worth watching and seeing what occurs.

Windemere

Kiara
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Kiara » 13 Nov 2013 18:02

Well it sure is interesting... I dont know what will happen either. If anything.

And yup, you'd probably need some reward to make PVP really interesting. The trick is to keep any reward from being abused though... If there is no death penalty and also a reward for killing someone we might be looking on a lot of "friendly fire"...

Tricky!

Amberlee
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Amberlee » 13 Nov 2013 18:06

imo death should come with a loss.
High Risk, High Reward.

If not.. whats the point?
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Windemere
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Windemere » 13 Nov 2013 18:11

I think the idea here is that people did not want to lose their XP.

So they were avoiding PvP at all costs. If that is what we want, no PvP then I think penalizing it is a good way to go. Some people, as I said, it is no issue for them. They can grind it back pretty quick. There are lots of people who cannot do that. It took Windemere 6 months to recover from a death (maybe more). Playstyle has an impact on this too!

What I am suggesting is that if we want to remove the XP penalty, there needs to be a reason to participate. If it isn't to kill an enemy and force them to recover than what is it? My idea is to try and accomplish Gorboth's goal of having it be fun when you win or when you lose.

Perhaps these tokens could go towards some sort of guild reward. Or you could use them to access a special arena where you fight enemies for rewards. Perhaps you could use it as a means of purchasing vanity items or imbues.

I do not know what the system would look like. This system certainly doesn't deal with any existing or perceived balance issues. At least, though, it doesn't penalize you while these issues are resolved. So lets find a way to make a system that is not only fun, but also rewarding for all involved.

Just an idea.

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Amorana
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Amorana » 13 Nov 2013 18:20

Windemere wrote:I think the idea here is that people did not want to lose their XP.

So they were avoiding PvP at all costs. If that is what we want, no PvP then I think penalizing it is a good way to go. Some people, as I said, it is no issue for them. They can grind it back pretty quick. There are lots of people who cannot do that. It took Windemere 6 months to recover from a death (maybe more). Playstyle has an impact on this too!

What I am suggesting is that if we want to remove the XP penalty, there needs to be a reason to participate. If it isn't to kill an enemy and force them to recover than what is it? My idea is to try and accomplish Gorboth's goal of having it be fun when you win or when you lose.

Perhaps these tokens could go towards some sort of guild reward. Or you could use them to access a special arena where you fight enemies for rewards. Perhaps you could use it as a means of purchasing vanity items or imbues.

I do not know what the system would look like. This system certainly doesn't deal with any existing or perceived balance issues. At least, though, it doesn't penalize you while these issues are resolved. So lets find a way to make a system that is not only fun, but also rewarding for all involved.

Just an idea.
In that regard, it could also be that the PVP victors get a share (something small, 10% perhaps?) of the loser's current accumulation of the tokens. Not only would it encourage people to PVP, but it would encourage those who enjoy PVP to PVP with each other over going after those who enjoy PVE. This helps to alleviate the dynamic for those who just hate PVP.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Windemere
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Windemere » 13 Nov 2013 18:23

As I think about this I get more and more ideas,

Currently in PvP you had a dynamic like this:

Winner - No real reward except eq
Loser - Penalized

So here is another suggestion.

Winner - Rewarded
Loser - Minimal Penalty

Here is an explanation:

In PvP a winner would be rewarded with Tokens for "something" as I stated in my previous two notes above. The Loser would not suffer any XP loss, BUT, they would gain XP at a reduced rate for say 2 hours of playing time.

Now, this would create three possibilities. Either 1, the person would sit idly in their guild hall for two hours and waste time, OR, they would go after their PvP killer and try for revenger, OR they would RP with people and chat and spend two hours doing something fun besides grinding!

I don't know if it's perfect, but it sounds like you get both worlds. You get that sting, without losing XP and shrinking, and it might actually get some people to chat and RP a bit more. The winner gets some tokens to use for some sort of benefit that doesn't imbalance the game.

Windemere

Kiara
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Kiara » 13 Nov 2013 18:34

amberlee wrote:imo death should come with a loss.
High Risk, High Reward.

If not.. whats the point?
I get high risk and high reward idea. But havent we always lacked the reward part?

PVP in Genesis has been high risk, no reward? I mean technically at least.

Celephias
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Celephias » 13 Nov 2013 18:37

I believe the reward, outside of whatever gear and loot the loser had on him/her, is hurting your enemies and general schadenfreude.

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