Death lost the bet!

[Kiara]

To be a winner in PVP now you first need to spend several YEARS to gain the stats necessary.

several people proved this to be not true on quite a few characters already ... please

Its funny how you only quoted half of what I said. You did that simply so you would have something to say? Something to disagree on? Whats the point of doing that? It is kinda silly.. and the one looking silly is you...

Here is what I really said, as you probably already know, but I even put it in bold just for you! (And Draugor as well who didnt read my initial post either it seems??:))

To be a winner in PVP now you first need to spend several YEARS to gain the stats necessary. Yeah sure, a tiny portion of our players can hit myth quicker, but for most it's gonna take years, or more, and some wont ever hit myth.

Yes. See I already acknowledged some people can do it quick, but for the majority of us its not gonna happen. And it's ESPECIALLY unlikely for a truly new player, and we need those.

[Draugor]

To be a winner in PVP now you first need to spend several YEARS to gain the stats necessary.

several people proved this to be not true on quite a few characters already ... please

Its funny how you only quoted half of what I said. You did that simply so you would have something to say? Something to disagree on? Whats the point of doing that? It is kinda silly.. and the one looking silly is you...

Here is what I really said, as you probably already know, but I even put it in bold just for you! (And Draugor as well who didnt read my initial post either it seems??:))

To be a winner in PVP now you first need to spend several YEARS to gain the stats necessary. Yeah sure, a tiny portion of our players can hit myth quicker, but for most it's gonna take years, or more, and some wont ever hit myth.

Yes. See I already acknowledged some people can do it quick, but for the majority of us its not gonna happen. And it's ESPECIALLY unlikely for a truly new player, and we need those.

Well the game and especially the quests are about as newbie friendly as a landmine so... yea new players will be a bitch finding

[Laurel]

I don't get it.

Whenever I start to play a new game I NEVER aspire to be among the best killers, biggest badasses, best geared raid leaders, etc. within a few days. It's against game economy to be able to do such things. You need players to aspire to get there, to make them collect countless monkey-anuses on the way.
It took me a few months before I got hooked enough into WoW to get onto the guild-raids train, be verified in a few raids and join the elite server raiding group of my guild.
It took me another few months to get hooked enough into LoL to finally go PvP. I never played a ranked game though.
When I started Gen, I played with others at ca. my level - NOT with mythical beasts like Bebop, Thunder, Kith, etc. I could only aspire to them.

I really don't get it. Is there no other game content in Genesis than for myth+ out of a sudden???

Btw. someone please remind me how big were the members of the team that killed Irk a while ago - Syrk, Kiara and Castaneda - and compare those to the infamous failed attempt by the bunch of biggies in Sparkle.

[Kiara]

Whenever I start to play a new game I NEVER aspire to be among the best killers, biggest badasses, best geared raid leaders, etc. within a few days.
It's against game economy to be able to do such things. You need players to aspire to get there, to make them collect countless monkey-anuses on the way.

Uh. Who said it should take days? All I said was that I dont think it should take YEARS. Theres a huge difference between years and days...

It took me a few months before I got hooked enough into WoW to get onto the guild-raids train, be verified in a few raids and join the elite server raiding group of my guild.
It took me another few months to get hooked enough into LoL to finally go PvP. I never played a ranked game though.
When I started Gen, I played with others at ca. my level - NOT with mythical beasts like Bebop, Thunder, Kith, etc. I could only aspire to them.

I really don't get it. Is there no other game content in Genesis than for myth+ out of a sudden???

A few months sounds perfectly reasonable. My personal opinion though is that it's gonna take over a year, or more, for a new player to be big enough to be able to really participate in any PVP going on. Now this could change if the game got a large boost of players suddenly, so there would be people in your own level to play with. But currently though, if you start a new char, no matter if you're an old or new player, its gonna take A LOT of time to reach a size where you could join PVP.
But, hey I dont got all the solutions. Thats just my own personal feelings. I am sure Draugor who can go from novice to myths in a few months doesnt feel the same way. But I dont think we should expect that kind of commitment from all players.

Fine, you can team up, but in reality we are usually too few to crate some type of PVP-hunting team, and you will still be bullied by the big people for most of the time anyway. I think stat differences has an impact on PVP. More than death penalty. Thats my personal opinion though.

Btw. someone please remind me how big were the members of the team that killed Irk a while ago - Syrk, Kiara and Castaneda - and compare those to the infamous failed attempt by the bunch of biggies in Sparkle.

That kill wasnt really "PVP" though, just tracking a botter's botting scheme and catching him when he was away form his computer.
[/quote]

[Manglor]

Kiara: It doesn't take long to get to champion. Probably ~1 day played for someone trying hard. If you really push it, you could do myth in a few months. If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could do it in under 10 days played.

Why should people be able to 'jump in and join pvp at the highest level'? Name a popular game you can just start and compete with those who have been playing for months/years. Why would you want a system like that? What's the benefit of being big?

Do you want a statcap? I think that will force a large percentage of the bigger players to leave. What about some 'hunting grounds' where stats are more balanced? In WoW pvp lately in the lower level brackets they've been rounding your stats up to the highest 9th level...maybe something like that? Titan vs. Myth is more like baby legend vs. myth?

Kiara, et al: What's your ideal model of fairness if it isn't fair the way it is?

[Kiara]

Kiara: It doesn't take long to get to champion. Probably ~1 day played for someone trying hard. If you really push it, you could do myth in a few months. If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could do it in under 10 days played.

Why should people be able to 'jump in and join pvp at the highest level'? Name a popular game you can just start and compete with those who have been playing for months/years. Why would you want a system like that? What's the benefit of being big?

Do you want a statcap? I think that will force a large percentage of the bigger players to leave. What about some 'hunting grounds' where stats are more balanced? In WoW pvp lately in the lower level brackets they've been rounding your stats up to the highest 9th level...maybe something like that? Titan vs. Myth is more like baby legend vs. myth?

Kiara, et al: What's your ideal model of fairness if it isn't fair the way it is?

One day played to champion? Wow. I must suck at this game so badly:P And I do suck at grinding. Simply because I find it quite boring to be honest. Maybe you guys can do champ in a few days, myth in a few months. And have fun doing it. Good for you. I dont think most can, or would enjoy doing it. I am just speculating though, I can only speak for how I feel.

But I never said you should be able to "jump in and join PVP at the highest level" right away. My suggestion was that stat-wise we might consider a cap at champ/legend. (But with other benefits for continuing the grind like I said). For a truly new player that still does not mean you just "jump in" at that level does it? Most truly new players spend quite some time in the newbie village. And reaching champion is gonna take some serious time and effort.

Once, long ago, Genesis was a game where you COULD jump in as completely new and reach the highest levels in maybe half a year, or less if you really put in some effort. And then you could play with the big ones in PVP. Bad system? No, I think it was a good one. The highest title was much much lower than today, so reaching it was much easier. You could still grow if you wanted, but there were no more titles and no more stats, and no Mithas trolls or Qualinost elves etc... so people socialized more, PVPed more, and in my opinion had more fun. I sure did. (Or maybe it's just a romantic memory...?)

Anyway, as for my suggestion, I explained my suggestion on a possible solution earlier. I am sure you'll find it a few posts back. It involves a cap of stats but other rewards for growing. The idea was that it should make PVP more even but still reward the grinders, hopefully in a MORE fun way than our current system. But your ideas also sound reasonable.

It's not about fairness. That big stats win IS fair. Everyone can get big stats, its just a matter of how skilled you are and how much time you put into it. But is it FUN? I am trying to think about how PVP could be more fun. I truly believe the key for Genesis to become filled with players depends mainly on the socializing part of it. Some people are happy just grinding away, growing stats, but well, eventually most people get bored of that I think? And mostly the loner-grinder type of player stay.
I dont like it much personally. So why am I playing then? Well, I am really not, I've only played events lately, since its one of the few things these days that involve some competition and socializing. I decided to start my own PVP-related event, and see if it's possible to get some "action" going that actually involves a few players and guilds. Theres other like me though, who mostly plays during events, and there's always an increase in players during events. I think people WANT to socialize, WANT to compete, but apart from events we have very little of that going on. Unfortunately.

I think the huge stat differences are in the way of potential fun, since I think many like me, who rather enjoy RP, competing and socializing, simply dont feel like doing all the grinding work needed to be able to enjoy PVP successfully. And those who do have very few to play with anyway... so... yeah, not much happens. Except the occasional killed botter or mage victim. And that type of PVP is just not that fun...

[Laurel]

Titles aside, you were hardly ever able to reach Thunder's stats in the old days. Even Bebop was a beast. I find it fair that 15 years later more than 1 char in the game can be considered such a beast.

[Arcon]

Titles aside, you were hardly ever able to reach Thunder's stats in the old days. Even Bebop was a beast. I find it fair that 15 years later more than 1 char in the game can be considered such a beast.

There has been at least one or two xp-nerf. I remember when I started playing and there was one. I don't know if they took away xp or just raised the bar on all the stats or what they did but people were suddenly smaller. Maybe it is time for another one of those.

I know I wouldn't mind being smaller if I knew that everyone else were smaller.

[Manglor]

The highest title was much much lower than today, so reaching it was much easier.

I think this is the most important part of your post. It's been brought up by countless others, but to rehash it again, the title system is the worst thing that ever happened to Genesis. No one wants to die, especially after hitting myth, just to have to grind out that title again.

Staang to Dethraine: "Seregwath how big is Xashian?" "I don't know, my appraise sucks but she's at least a baby champion."

^^ What was so wrong with this?

I remember so many pfights in the 90's where people would die, run back to their corpse, wield/wear, jump back into the fray and die again... "So what? I'm still a champion...who cares?"

Now not only is there no mystique at all regarding player size, but even based on titles alone we can pinpoint with relative certainty the exact numerical statavg of the character. "He's a legend so he can't be bigger than XXX" So by changing titles, they changed the game completely and created a need to grind/bot/cheat your way to the top.

Why are people afraid to die? Because you made them so overprotective of their titles that you essentially forced them to chase.

[Draugor]

The highest title was much much lower than today, so reaching it was much easier.

I think this is the most important part of your post. It's been brought up by countless others, but to rehash it again, the title system is the worst thing that ever happened to Genesis. No one wants to die, especially after hitting myth, just to have to grind out that title again.

Staang to Dethraine: "Seregwath how big is Xashian?" "I don't know, my appraise sucks but she's at least a baby champion."

^^ What was so wrong with this?

I remember so many pfights in the 90's where people would die, run back to their corpse, wield/wear, jump back into the fray and die again... "So what? I'm still a champion...who cares?"

Now not only is there no mystique at all regarding player size, but even based on titles alone we can pinpoint with relative certainty the exact numerical statavg of the character. "He's a legend so he can't be bigger than XXX" So by changing titles, they changed the game completely and created a need to grind/bot/cheat your way to the top.

Why are people afraid to die? Because you made them so overprotective of their titles that you essentially forced them to chase.

Hear hear!