Death lost the bet!

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Amorana
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Amorana » 22 Nov 2013 18:29

Amorana wrote:I've been thinking something similar only in more of an "instanced PVP" type setting. Gorboth had mentioned in his ideas for where the Admin would like the game to go, that the idea of saving gear would be possible. I have thought that it would be nice that if in such a location there was a locker where you could have your "PVP" gear. Through the course of PVPing, you could purchase this gear with a currency that you earn through PVP. As you gain more of the currency you can replace it with better, put certain enchantments, etc. We could also institute certain rewards that you could purchase... Perhaps a title system that is advanced through purchasing the titles with Currency... This would institute some feeling of purpose to PVP, as well as a bit of fun, and a new place to grind.

Everyone talks about "why people" PVP in Genesis. Everyone claims that taking away death makes PVP less fun. But if PVP was so fun with a death penalty, why was no one doing it? The amount of PVP on the realms is non-existent.

We have to stop thinking about PVP in terms of only a RP "I hate your guild, we're at war" type scenario, and more in ways to evolve PVP into the type of system that people have come to enjoy in games. If we remain stuck in the past systems and theories on PVP, we will become a relic; we will only attract players that are less and less existent in the world of gaming today. Games must evolve to stay relevant with current trends. Genesis is no exception.

Amorana, the future Supreme Wraith Slayer of Sparkle Valley
Beyond what I've said here - such an idea could eliminate every problem that people are, for lack of a better word, bitching about. A) An instanced PVP setting can make it such that stat averages are equalized based on race (i.e. Everyone's, say, a myth, of 120 stat average, or whatever - I don't even know numbers, and the only real difference is based on how you've focused your stats and your race). B) Magical resistances, etc, could be added to gear. C) Gear could be enchanted in such a way that specials might interrupt a cast. There are a plethora of options where such a PVP system could eliminate everyone's gripes about PVP as it stands in Genesis.
Last edited by Amorana on 22 Nov 2013 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Amorana
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Amorana » 22 Nov 2013 18:30

arcon wrote:But why eliminate PvP? There will be no surprise attacks, no ambushes or anything. And since there are hardly any PvP there is no reason to eliminate them.
Eliminate PVP in its current form, so that it may actually return to Genesis, and beyond that, thrive in Genesis. I think that would be the reason. To say it doesn't exist so don't make it better doesn't fix the problem.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Windemere
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Windemere » 22 Nov 2013 18:37

Listen, there are a few facts we have to come to terms with.

1. Genesis does not have 100 people playing anymore.
2. True newbies find graphical games to be intimidating.
3. There is a huge disparity between the biggest in the game and many others.
4. When people get huge they tend to leave as there is no "end game" really.
5. Most of us that play are no longer in High School/University where we have hours to dedicate to grinding/playing.

PvP is not the solution to any problem genesis has. PvP has actually created many more problems then it solves. Correction the Death Penalty has. Most people don't have time to recover from a death and take it harshly or are like "why bother". Hence the experiment.

PvP like we had in the old days is not feasible with today's clientele. Is that bad, maybe, does it mean we should move forward, Yes. Saying "That's how it was why change it" is the worst argument ever. PvP in the past, while may have been good in the past, is not working the way we want it to now.

Hence my numerous and verbose attempts to start a conversation on how to change PvP so that it is fun and enjoyable and worth participating in.

I think if we create "end game" concepts like I suggested we will keep people around much longer once they reach Uber myth. My ideas could scale based on size of the person. XP in these areas could be distributed differently. Not per kill but per level completed, for example, so they don't become huge grinding grounds.

In respect to PvP I've outlined a variety of ways to approach the concept. My key point has always been that there must be:

1. A reason to want to participate in PvP
2. A way for it to be worthwhile for both Winner and Loser.

The old reasons to participate in PvP are gone. There are less and less people who actually RP. Think about it. Most people spend their time grinding away at Mobs with teams of people who are running behind them on little more than triggers while people watch movies on their comps at home and check in from time to time. Is that bad? Maybe. Will those people actively participate in the current PvP model? No.

So, lets get away from what was in the past and think of what we need to do for the future.

Windemere

Kiara
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Kiara » 22 Nov 2013 18:52

Windemere wrote:Listen, there are a few facts we have to come to terms with.

1. Genesis does not have 100 people playing anymore.
2. True newbies find graphical games to be intimidating.
3. There is a huge disparity between the biggest in the game and many others.
4. When people get huge they tend to leave as there is no "end game" really.
5. Most of us that play are no longer in High School/University where we have hours to dedicate to grinding/playing.

PvP is not the solution to any problem genesis has. PvP has actually created many more problems then it solves. Correction the Death Penalty has. Most people don't have time to recover from a death and take it harshly or are like "why bother". Hence the experiment.

PvP like we had in the old days is not feasible with today's clientele. Is that bad, maybe, does it mean we should move forward, Yes. Saying "That's how it was why change it" is the worst argument ever. PvP in the past, while may have been good in the past, is not working the way we want it to now.

Hence my numerous and verbose attempts to start a conversation on how to change PvP so that it is fun and enjoyable and worth participating in.

I think if we create "end game" concepts like I suggested we will keep people around much longer once they reach Uber myth. My ideas could scale based on size of the person. XP in these areas could be distributed differently. Not per kill but per level completed, for example, so they don't become huge grinding grounds.

In respect to PvP I've outlined a variety of ways to approach the concept. My key point has always been that there must be:

1. A reason to want to participate in PvP
2. A way for it to be worthwhile for both Winner and Loser.

The old reasons to participate in PvP are gone. There are less and less people who actually RP. Think about it. Most people spend their time grinding away at Mobs with teams of people who are running behind them on little more than triggers while people watch movies on their comps at home and check in from time to time. Is that bad? Maybe. Will those people actively participate in the current PvP model? No.

So, lets get away from what was in the past and think of what we need to do for the future.

Windemere
Great note!

Jhael
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Jhael » 22 Nov 2013 21:10

Windemere wrote:Listen, there are a few facts we have to come to terms with.

1. Genesis does not have 100 people playing anymore.
2. True newbies find graphical games to be intimidating.
3. There is a huge disparity between the biggest in the game and many others.
4. When people get huge they tend to leave as there is no "end game" really.
5. Most of us that play are no longer in High School/University where we have hours to dedicate to grinding/playing.

PvP is not the solution to any problem genesis has. PvP has actually created many more problems then it solves. Correction the Death Penalty has. Most people don't have time to recover from a death and take it harshly or are like "why bother". Hence the experiment.

PvP like we had in the old days is not feasible with today's clientele. Is that bad, maybe, does it mean we should move forward, Yes. Saying "That's how it was why change it" is the worst argument ever. PvP in the past, while may have been good in the past, is not working the way we want it to now.

Hence my numerous and verbose attempts to start a conversation on how to change PvP so that it is fun and enjoyable and worth participating in.

I think if we create "end game" concepts like I suggested we will keep people around much longer once they reach Uber myth. My ideas could scale based on size of the person. XP in these areas could be distributed differently. Not per kill but per level completed, for example, so they don't become huge grinding grounds.

In respect to PvP I've outlined a variety of ways to approach the concept. My key point has always been that there must be:

1. A reason to want to participate in PvP
2. A way for it to be worthwhile for both Winner and Loser.

The old reasons to participate in PvP are gone. There are less and less people who actually RP. Think about it. Most people spend their time grinding away at Mobs with teams of people who are running behind them on little more than triggers while people watch movies on their comps at home and check in from time to time. Is that bad? Maybe. Will those people actively participate in the current PvP model? No.

So, lets get away from what was in the past and think of what we need to do for the future.

Windemere
+1

Arcon

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Arcon » 22 Nov 2013 23:53

Windemere wrote:Listen, there are a few facts we have to come to terms with.

1. Genesis does not have 100 people playing anymore.
2. True newbies find graphical games to be intimidating.
3. There is a huge disparity between the biggest in the game and many others.
4. When people get huge they tend to leave as there is no "end game" really.
5. Most of us that play are no longer in High School/University where we have hours to dedicate to grinding/playing.

PvP is not the solution to any problem genesis has. PvP has actually created many more problems then it solves. Correction the Death Penalty has. Most people don't have time to recover from a death and take it harshly or are like "why bother". Hence the experiment.

PvP like we had in the old days is not feasible with today's clientele. Is that bad, maybe, does it mean we should move forward, Yes. Saying "That's how it was why change it" is the worst argument ever. PvP in the past, while may have been good in the past, is not working the way we want it to now.

Hence my numerous and verbose attempts to start a conversation on how to change PvP so that it is fun and enjoyable and worth participating in.

I think if we create "end game" concepts like I suggested we will keep people around much longer once they reach Uber myth. My ideas could scale based on size of the person. XP in these areas could be distributed differently. Not per kill but per level completed, for example, so they don't become huge grinding grounds.

In respect to PvP I've outlined a variety of ways to approach the concept. My key point has always been that there must be:

1. A reason to want to participate in PvP
2. A way for it to be worthwhile for both Winner and Loser.

The old reasons to participate in PvP are gone. There are less and less people who actually RP. Think about it. Most people spend their time grinding away at Mobs with teams of people who are running behind them on little more than triggers while people watch movies on their comps at home and check in from time to time. Is that bad? Maybe. Will those people actively participate in the current PvP model? No.

So, lets get away from what was in the past and think of what we need to do for the future.

Windemere
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think eliminating PvP would change it. Instead I think a change to the death penalty, something that would be time based instead of xp based. If you "die" in battle you recieve a wound to a part of your body which will hinder you in someway for 2 weeks(?). Lets say you lose the use of a arm for two weeks or you hurt your leg which makes you get tired more often or a wound to your body making you fight slower. All of these things would heal with time. During that time you can still play but with a small penalty. You will recover automatically after two(?) weeks.
You wouldn't loose any hard earned xp and if you are mostly interested in rp or talking to people you will hardly notice it.
But the PvP is a important part of the game. If you join a guild with a natural enemy you should be a bit nervous seeing them in the same area as you or you should be able to attack them for some old crime they might have commited. It is a important part of rp.
For example, I am in a team fighting Haradrims I should be a bit nervous if I see Fluffy or some other nazgul awake. It is a bit of the charm of fighting them. Maybe we are making a trap to kill one or maybe we are just wreckless thrillseekers? The possibility should be there I feel.

We do need something to take away the importance of grinding especially once you reach high(?) levels. This game needs to open its door to more types of players and they need to feel welcome as well. Now days if you don't grind you will never grow. So some kind of endgame that is based on size so not so huge players also could enjoy it. Something that can give perks and not xp.

Raids on different cities is one idea. Sparkle and Calathin for everyone, MT and Palanthas for goodies to defend and maybe evils to assist the raiders, MM and Neraka for evils to defend and this time the goodies could take advantage of it.
Treasure hunts with map pieces, one piece/hint leads you to another. Maybe some NPC holds a piece and you need to gather a team to kill him. But the hunts should be cross Genesis and not just in one domain.
Arena tournaments with wizards helping out with the rewards.

And I am sure a lot more people have ideas for more mini events and endgame things.

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Amorana
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Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Amorana » 23 Nov 2013 00:02

arcon wrote:I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think eliminating PvP would change it. Instead I think a change to the death penalty, something that would be time based instead of xp based. If you "die" in battle you recieve a wound to a part of your body which will hinder you in someway for 2 weeks(?). Lets say you lose the use of a arm for two weeks or you hurt your leg which makes you get tired more often or a wound to your body making you fight slower. All of these things would heal with time. During that time you can still play but with a small penalty. You will recover automatically after two(?) weeks.
You wouldn't loose any hard earned xp and if you are mostly interested in rp or talking to people you will hardly notice it.
But the PvP is a important part of the game. If you join a guild with a natural enemy you should be a bit nervous seeing them in the same area as you or you should be able to attack them for some old crime they might have commited. It is a important part of rp.
But you're still operating under the impression that inter-guild RP is still an active part of Genesis. Unfortunately, it isn't. And still with the same old idea that PVP death should be a punishment. Whatever the "punishment" is, if a punishment exists, people will still seek to avoid it, and in almost no time, we will be back to the drawing board of "Why doesn't anyone PVP in Genesis?" As long as death in PVP is a punishment, no one will want to do it.

That isn't to say that people are suddenly doing it more now that death is not a punishment. Only to get to the point that PVP as a system within this game needs an overhaul, not a bandaid fix.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Celephias
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Joined: 19 Oct 2010 19:23

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Celephias » 23 Nov 2013 00:05

arcon wrote:
Windemere wrote:Listen, there are a few facts we have to come to terms with.

1. Genesis does not have 100 people playing anymore.
2. True newbies find graphical games to be intimidating.
3. There is a huge disparity between the biggest in the game and many others.
4. When people get huge they tend to leave as there is no "end game" really.
5. Most of us that play are no longer in High School/University where we have hours to dedicate to grinding/playing.

PvP is not the solution to any problem genesis has. PvP has actually created many more problems then it solves. Correction the Death Penalty has. Most people don't have time to recover from a death and take it harshly or are like "why bother". Hence the experiment.

PvP like we had in the old days is not feasible with today's clientele. Is that bad, maybe, does it mean we should move forward, Yes. Saying "That's how it was why change it" is the worst argument ever. PvP in the past, while may have been good in the past, is not working the way we want it to now.

Hence my numerous and verbose attempts to start a conversation on how to change PvP so that it is fun and enjoyable and worth participating in.

I think if we create "end game" concepts like I suggested we will keep people around much longer once they reach Uber myth. My ideas could scale based on size of the person. XP in these areas could be distributed differently. Not per kill but per level completed, for example, so they don't become huge grinding grounds.

In respect to PvP I've outlined a variety of ways to approach the concept. My key point has always been that there must be:

1. A reason to want to participate in PvP
2. A way for it to be worthwhile for both Winner and Loser.

The old reasons to participate in PvP are gone. There are less and less people who actually RP. Think about it. Most people spend their time grinding away at Mobs with teams of people who are running behind them on little more than triggers while people watch movies on their comps at home and check in from time to time. Is that bad? Maybe. Will those people actively participate in the current PvP model? No.

So, lets get away from what was in the past and think of what we need to do for the future.

Windemere
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I don't think eliminating PvP would change it. Instead I think a change to the death penalty, something that would be time based instead of xp based. If you "die" in battle you recieve a wound to a part of your body which will hinder you in someway for 2 weeks(?). Lets say you lose the use of a arm for two weeks or you hurt your leg which makes you get tired more often or a wound to your body making you fight slower. All of these things would heal with time. During that time you can still play but with a small penalty. You will recover automatically after two(?) weeks.
You wouldn't loose any hard earned xp and if you are mostly interested in rp or talking to people you will hardly notice it.
But the PvP is a important part of the game. If you join a guild with a natural enemy you should be a bit nervous seeing them in the same area as you or you should be able to attack them for some old crime they might have commited. It is a important part of rp.
For example, I am in a team fighting Haradrims I should be a bit nervous if I see Fluffy or some other nazgul awake. It is a bit of the charm of fighting them. Maybe we are making a trap to kill one or maybe we are just wreckless thrillseekers? The possibility should be there I feel.

We do need something to take away the importance of grinding especially once you reach high(?) levels. This game needs to open its door to more types of players and they need to feel welcome as well. Now days if you don't grind you will never grow. So some kind of endgame that is based on size so not so huge players also could enjoy it. Something that can give perks and not xp.

Raids on different cities is one idea. Sparkle and Calathin for everyone, MT and Palanthas for goodies to defend and maybe evils to assist the raiders, MM and Neraka for evils to defend and this time the goodies could take advantage of it.
Treasure hunts with map pieces, one piece/hint leads you to another. Maybe some NPC holds a piece and you need to gather a team to kill him. But the hunts should be cross Genesis and not just in one domain.
Arena tournaments with wizards helping out with the rewards.

And I am sure a lot more people have ideas for more mini events and endgame things.
I like this discussion of potential improvements. My position is more like yours, Arcon regarding raids, events, and PvP. I think going to places that are either directly under protection or are likely to be perceived that way is a nice way to 'stir it up' and see what happens.

We even had a visitor in MM quite recently. Its exciting stuff and I hope the visitor enjoyed themselves as well.

Arcon

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Arcon » 23 Nov 2013 00:10

Amorana wrote:
But you're still operating under the impression that inter-guild RP is still an active part of Genesis. Unfortunately, it isn't. And still with the same old idea that PVP death should be a punishment. Whatever the "punishment" is, if a punishment exists, people will still seek to avoid it, and in almost no time, we will be back to the drawing board of "Why doesn't anyone PVP in Genesis?" As long as death in PVP is a punishment, no one will want to do it.
If you kill another player you get +10% on all xp for one week but if you get killed during that week you will loose it and get the wound. And you can only gain those 10% extra so it doesn't matter if you slaughter every player around you still just get 10%. But when that week is up you can go out on a hunt again. Of course guilds should still enforce their rules about pfights and the kill has to be someone of your size or bigger. Maybe you can get 15% if you manage to kill someone 2 mortal levels higher then you.

Maybe you don't gain that extra xp until the week is up and if you are killed before the killer will get the extra you collected plus what ever he gains after a week. In theory the chain can grow a lot and the last one standing so to speak could gain a lot of extra xp.


This was just a crazy idea I just had. I haven't really thought it over. It might make it too easy to cheat or create mass slaughter of seconds....I don't know, just a bit of brainstorming

Arcon

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Arcon » 23 Nov 2013 00:14

Celephias wrote:We even had a visitor in MM quite recently. Its exciting stuff and I hope the visitor enjoyed themselves as well.
I will have to come and visit one day. Hektor has promised me a guided tour of your city. We'll see when I cash in on that promise.

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