Death lost the bet!

All Genesis Common Board Messages get directed here. Discuss and comment!
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Ydred
Veteran
Posts: 237
Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Ydred » 14 Dec 2013 04:27

Irk wrote::roll:
Joining team where is someone who wants your head, with who you cant even speak, but you speak unfortunately provoking to attack. After warnings, you were still there. Yeah, lets smoke and be happy or dead ;)
Interesting is fact you want to team with a criminal in the Knights eye and see no issue, why so? :|

Try to read more carefuly, I am writing this thrice, i didnt want to kill you that day.
Nah I dont follow. Really.

Manglor invited me. I came and joined. Even he had no reason to believe you would do as you did. And left you alone when you did.

You were not a criminal yet. It might have been considered before that as you were stealing gold and kills before that. From an ally. But I wasnt conclave.

As for not wanting to kill me ... you did. Or were you inhibited by a movement impairing effect? And of course I say you, but Irk didnt have to. It made no sense since just alittle bit before .... you didnt kill me ... so whatever stayed Irks hand 2hrs or so before ... or 6hrs or so before ... or however many hours before that day it was .... and it was several times that day we ran into each other .... Irk didnt attack. So why would I think you would actually do it then ..... with so strange a meaning. It made no sense to me the Master and therefore to the player, but Irk did it anyway. And I would imagine ... that those other reason why the calians want you dead .... are much the same as this one. One we little understand.

But now you are Thane ... perhaps there is a way to mend all that was ... I dont know.

And as I said, yes .... Ydred .... at this point sees many grays in life. And as I have found so do many who were evil. And forgiveness .... or looking past a transgression ... is grey.

And yes, I am sorry I digress but will not after this. My excuse ... I am as drunk as a dwarf :)

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 598
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Makfly » 14 Dec 2013 11:42

ydred wrote:Quite funny. You are being very obtuse. And it is amusing.
However, you, while claiming I am sidestepping an issue, sidestep it all with your own false logic.
Not once did I say you were sidestepping the issue. I wrote that you were back-pedalling away from your initial statements.
Let's review your initial post shall we:
ydred wrote:[...]Code should never 'see' for a guild what their players should see with their own eyes for their guild. Period.
NPC's should remain dummies ... always. Not pretend characters to help you.
You went from the above to this from your latest posts:
ydred wrote:[...] Allow the npcs to report all day long [...]
Through the three posts you managed to backpedal so far, that we might actually end up agreeing, as you could see if you read my posts.
---
ydred wrote:[...]As is your logic, amusing. It is infact you that uses a strawman while you simultaneously accuse me of the same. Just hush while you are behind.[...]
For your convienience I have provided you a link to were you might start your search for understanding the term strawman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
---
ydred wrote:As for your other nonsense, you never answered the question [...]
As for not answering your question - Please refer me to where you wanted to put the questionmark in your second post, because its not there.
---
ydred wrote:And what I do not understand ... is I do not get your tone towards me. You seem to dislike me ... and I dont even know who you are .... I am pretty sure no Makfly plays the game. So since I dont know ... care to tell? Or hide like you do, at least regarding what I know.
Regarding any tone you pick up, then I do not dislike you, I simply dislike silly absolutist remarks like the ones in your initial post. Since you have continued to backpedal further from your initial statements, I take it you simply posted some knee-jerk reactionary post without putting much thought into what you were actually writing.
I also take it that you have signatures disabled, when you start going on about "hiding", because a name is right there in every post by default.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Ydred
Veteran
Posts: 237
Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Ydred » 14 Dec 2013 13:54

Nah I still think no npcs should report even at the MM level.

I think allowing it causes it to go down the road robes went. Where they get ever better at hiding stuff they never should have hidden.

But Kas and you did make me think that there could be some 'thematic' rules.
So I played with that. There could be a middle ground if wizs are fully kept within it.
Not all npcs should report.
Npcs that do report should have a great reason to report.
And then this is where it breaks apart for me anyway.
Cause someone comes along and gives any BS reason they can to have an npc report.

And then there are the levels of reporting .... why do any npcs know your name?
Unless you introduce to them .... they only should report your description.
And if you wear certain items in game ... they cant even see your description. Only your race.

But this is not what we have in game ... we have guilds who are simply told person X did this.
with no reason why those npcs have some sort of arcane ability to divine that inforamtion.

So I say remove them all .... or we need to clarify these reporting npcs and that is what I was
attempting to do. Even though I dont think it wise.

Mostly, I dont like npcs to report becuase I think it takes away from raids .... players know they are
caught ..... if npcs didnt report players would take more risks and attack places they know they
could get in trouble if caught .... but if not caught ... oh the fun. Hell, that is what draws so many to
the Haradrim .... XPs and thrill ..... and when caught death. But it hasnt stopped many players from
engaging those camps ..... but if we were to put a mage sentry that gave a full identification reports
concerning anyone who entered the camp ..... well would anyone enter it? Not likely cause even if
they mages are asleep, they would know .... person x y and z are now wanted. And person x y and z
would not enjoy that as much as the 'chance' to not get caught.

Somewhere in that is why I dont like NPCs to report. And as Kas pointed out ... MM npcs do not report while mages are asleep .... so the rats can all play, unless a mage logs and quickly starts his patrols.

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Kiara » 22 Dec 2013 04:08

Ok, to bring this note back to the topic:

Some feedback on "death lost the bet".

Has it led to more PVP? I am not sure... I started my mage hunt event before the change to death, so I would have gone through with it anyway. I can't speak for the others who's been bothering mages lately. At first I thought no death penalty made it a little less fun to do "dangerous" things, but lately I must say I kind of like it. I mean you still dont wanna lose your EQ and herbs and stuff so it is still exciting. It hurt a little when Morrison killed me, since I lost some good items, but it did not stop playing at all, not even for one second, which is a pretty common thing that happens otherwise when you do die. This time I felt a little sting, but I was generally okay with it. I dont think it is such a bad idea at all to be honest. I might still suggest maybe a small XP penalty would be in place. How about ONE fantastic prog? So it stings a little more, and therefore also makes it more exciting. It also makes it less useful to leave your herbs and EQ home and just go out and bother people with NOTHING to lose. Which would be the case with no penalty at all.

Nobody seems to have "abused" this though, nothing I have noticed at least. People generally tend to be a little braver in PVE combat though, maybe a little too brave, making some areas that used to feel dangerous, feel much less dangerous, since you can just go back and get the stuff from your corpse and carry on as nothing happened. So... again, just a slight XP penalty would probably work here too. Nobody would willingly lose a fantastic prog, but it would not make you wanna quit the game either...

So yeah... while I was a bit skeptical at first, I am in general pretty pleased with no death, but would suggest he returns, but is nicer.:)

Now, thats the positive side.

Negative? Well its pretty obvious I think. I have angered the mages, and since they (or some of them anyway) feel the current death is not punishment enough, they have instead decided to wait with their "punishments" until death is back in full force. The idea with this change was to encourage PVP, but what it seems to have done is more like postpone it. Which I guess was not the intention in the first place?

So if any "crime" that happens during this period of no penalty, will just be enforced when death is back... well then it's hard to draw any conclusions from this test. Attacks made during the trial period were made with little risk for the victim, but if the retaliation will be when death is back, and full risk for the attacker. So in reality, attacking someone during this trial is just as lethal as before... so... yeah...what conclusion do you draw from that? Personally I definitely have it coming, and have expected the mages would wait for death to return before hunting me/us down... still. It gives little useful info about this test.

Should there be another test, there would be little use for anyone to try to start trouble, since the enemies will just wait to fight back until death IS back.

I do think the trial period show that some players will restrain themselves from PVP for an entire two months, just to be able to "save up legal kills" until it hurts more. Now I totally get some mages would do that, I may have done the same had it been the opposite, but I am not so sure it's a fun PVP system, where people will refrain from PVP unless it hurt their enemies. Is hat really a fun system?

I think as long as the main purpose of PVP is to "reward" the winner by punishing the loser, then we will continue to see people quit the game when killed in PVP. Especially when the PVP abilities are imbalanced. Now I wont quit if Fluffy kills me a dozen times (and I have little doubt he will), and maybe Fluffy enjoys PVP more when he sees I am a veteran, and it's easier and easier to kill me each time. Still, I dont know if it's a great system for PVP.

I believe a very small punishment for the loser, and a pretty nice reward for the winner, is the way to go for more fun PVP. And this test has at least shown me, that even with NO penalty at all the game is still fun.

User avatar
Amorana
Expert
Posts: 298
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Amorana » 22 Dec 2013 05:04

Kiara wrote:Ok, to bring this note back to the topic:

Some feedback on "death lost the bet".

Has it led to more PVP? I am not sure... I started my mage hunt event before the change to death, so I would have gone through with it anyway. I can't speak for the others who's been bothering mages lately. At first I thought no death penalty made it a little less fun to do "dangerous" things, but lately I must say I kind of like it. I mean you still dont wanna lose your EQ and herbs and stuff so it is still exciting. It hurt a little when Morrison killed me, since I lost some good items, but it did not stop playing at all, not even for one second, which is a pretty common thing that happens otherwise when you do die. This time I felt a little sting, but I was generally okay with it. I dont think it is such a bad idea at all to be honest. I might still suggest maybe a small XP penalty would be in place. How about ONE fantastic prog? So it stings a little more, and therefore also makes it more exciting. It also makes it less useful to leave your herbs and EQ home and just go out and bother people with NOTHING to lose. Which would be the case with no penalty at all.

Nobody seems to have "abused" this though, nothing I have noticed at least. People generally tend to be a little braver in PVE combat though, maybe a little too brave, making some areas that used to feel dangerous, feel much less dangerous, since you can just go back and get the stuff from your corpse and carry on as nothing happened. So... again, just a slight XP penalty would probably work here too. Nobody would willingly lose a fantastic prog, but it would not make you wanna quit the game either...

So yeah... while I was a bit skeptical at first, I am in general pretty pleased with no death, but would suggest he returns, but is nicer.:)

Now, thats the positive side.

Negative? Well its pretty obvious I think. I have angered the mages, and since they (or some of them anyway) feel the current death is not punishment enough, they have instead decided to wait with their "punishments" until death is back in full force. The idea with this change was to encourage PVP, but what it seems to have done is more like postpone it. Which I guess was not the intention in the first place?

So if any "crime" that happens during this period of no penalty, will just be enforced when death is back... well then it's hard to draw any conclusions from this test. Attacks made during the trial period were made with little risk for the victim, but if the retaliation will be when death is back, and full risk for the attacker. So in reality, attacking someone during this trial is just as lethal as before... so... yeah...what conclusion do you draw from that? Personally I definitely have it coming, and have expected the mages would wait for death to return before hunting me/us down... still. It gives little useful info about this test.

Should there be another test, there would be little use for anyone to try to start trouble, since the enemies will just wait to fight back until death IS back.

I do think the trial period show that some players will restrain themselves from PVP for an entire two months, just to be able to "save up legal kills" until it hurts more. Now I totally get some mages would do that, I may have done the same had it been the opposite, but I am not so sure it's a fun PVP system, where people will refrain from PVP unless it hurt their enemies. Is hat really a fun system?

I think as long as the main purpose of PVP is to "reward" the winner by punishing the loser, then we will continue to see people quit the game when killed in PVP. Especially when the PVP abilities are imbalanced. Now I wont quit if Fluffy kills me a dozen times (and I have little doubt he will), and maybe Fluffy enjoys PVP more when he sees I am a veteran, and it's easier and easier to kill me each time. Still, I dont know if it's a great system for PVP.

I believe a very small punishment for the loser, and a pretty nice reward for the winner, is the way to go for more fun PVP. And this test has at least shown me, that even with NO penalty at all the game is still fun.

One thing I've noticed too, is that it's had (in my opinion) a bit of an effect on the PVP RP side. I won't lie, as I'm sure you could surmise Kiara, I'm not a huge PVPer. I don't enjoy it all that highly, and my experience has by and large always been that I can get away faster than just about anyone. I'm good at escaping and always having an escape plan - not so much the other side. However, it's been a little easier to RP being a bad ass sans-stats when death doesn't affect you. I encounter mages on boats, and rather than a simple disgusted look and ignoring their comments, I share a full dialogue, challenge them. promise them absolution. Sure it'll suck to lose herbs and gear should they decide they want to beat me into my hero oblivion. But I think it adds something, being able to RP in that way without necessarily the fear of having a lot of recovering to do. We often talk about the ability to close the gap between smaller players and larger ones, and I think at least RP wise, the holiday helps to do that. Sure, one could argue that I should have fear being only a hero - but hated enemies such as Morgul and the Circle are, I don't think that a small Cleric would have any fear of what amounts to vermin in their eyes, from an RP perspective.

I do, however, agree that a small increase would help bring the excitement - I very much like the idea of a fantastic progress worth of death recovery.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Jhael
Adept
Posts: 133
Joined: 26 Sep 2011 05:33

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Jhael » 22 Dec 2013 07:58

Kiara wrote:Negative? Well its pretty obvious I think. I have angered the mages, and since they (or some of them anyway) feel the current death is not punishment enough, they have instead decided to wait with their "punishments" until death is back in full force.
To be 100% completely and blatantly blunt with you (and the rest of the forums) I think this behavior is absolute horse shit. Overall, I think I'll be pretty disappointed if this is allowed to occur to the full extent that has been promised. This is not to say that I do not understand the thought process behind it but, instead, to say that I fully believe that the thought process is narrow minded, childish, and horse shit. Also, to be clear, I would say this about any player engaging in the behavior, Mage or not.

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 598
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Makfly » 22 Dec 2013 12:08

Kiara wrote:[...]I do think the trial period show that some players will restrain themselves from PVP for an entire two months, just to be able to "save up legal kills" until it hurts more. Now I totally get some mages would do that [...]
I don't get why you get it...
Personally I think it should be seen and acted upon by the Admin as 'harrashment'.


Over all I think the Death-mechanic in Genesis only plays a minor part in promoting PvP. Balance is where the majority of the problem is at, and the game isn't closer to a balance between all the guilds PvP abilities now, than it were when the no-death policy was evoked.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Arcon

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by Arcon » 22 Dec 2013 13:20

People that wait with their kills until death matters don't play a character they play the game. They don't think as the character think nor act as the character would act. The character wouldn't think/know that death is nothing. If they would want to punish you more they would try to take you to their dundgeon and keep you alive for years while torturing you. But we can't really do that so death should be the ultimate punishment.


I don't agree with no death penalty, I have died several times during this experiment and that is just bad. Death should be something to avoid and not taken lightly. I think that Kiaras idea of one fantastic is a bit low maybe two or three fantastics without death recovery is ok. If you kill a enemy then that enemy should be weaker. And if you die you should feel the need to learn from that experience.

I did try to come up with a way on how to promote PvP in guild wars by giving the guilds moral/reputation that would give a small boost to guild abilities and that the guild would still gain some moral/reputation even if you lost the battle, more if you won of course. And it would make it so even with death penalty the guild still gained a small boots.

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2306
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: Death lost the bet!

Post by gorboth » 22 Dec 2013 14:43

Good stuff, everyone. I've created a poll where we can discuss this further. Locking this thread.

https://www.genesismud.org/forums/viewt ... f=2&t=2557

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Locked
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/