Quest Reform

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gorboth
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Quest Reform

Post by gorboth » 23 Sep 2014 23:28

Code: Select all

Hi Everyone ...

Some good discussions have taken place recently on the Official Forum (what,
you don't read it? C'mon!) that have lead me to believe we might have the
interest in the community to take on something that has been needed on the
donut for many years - quest reform!

Considering the issue, and doing research into what has been proposed and
discussed in the past, I've come up with the following proposal, which I'd
like to put forward. I've shown it to Cotillion, who has also been interested
in getting rid of brutality for a long time, and gotten thoughts from various
other wizards and players. I'll toss it out to the community now to digest
and consider. Below the proposal, I'll outline some things that will be
needed to get this going.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                             Quest Revision Proposal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   I. Commission a team of experienced questers (who do not necessarily
      need to be wizards) to go through each quest, by domain, using the
      orbs as a reference, and produce:

           A. A list of design improvements needed to address issues of:
                   1. Syntax
                   2. Sufficient clues needed to solve
                   3. Disruption potential (can it be ruined?)
                   4. Availablility (once per Arma = problem)
                   5. Exclusivity (ideally, all players have access)
                   6. Death Traps (justifiable, but RARELY)
                   7. Variable reward (penalizing players because they
                          didn't do it "right" is just maddening)

           B. Up-to-date solution (runthrough) documentation for each quest
              once implementation of the above improvemens has transpired.
              These will not be made public, but are important to have on-
              hand for wizard reference.

           C. A suggestion for the correct amount of qxp reward based on
              some global rubric. A well-considered rubric has been
              developed by Tapakah at: /w/gorboth/open/qxp_rubric.txt

      Nota Bene: It will be necessary to share wiz-info with players
                 on this team to achieve certain goals, which will be
                 considered acceptable for the greater good.

  II. Commission a team of wizards to implement the design changes needed
      for each quest. 

 III. Create an AoE module that stores the correct amount of qxp that has
      been awarded to any player (by name) for events.

  IV. Change game design to remove entirety of a player's qxp at logout.

   V. Expand quest-orb tech to:
            A. Store revised qxp reward amounts for each quest.
            B. When a player logs in:
                    1. Check their quest bits for each domain
                    2. Add qxp for each solved quest.
                    3. Add qxp based on the AoE event module.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This design has many implications. Among them:

   - Equality is achieved among old and new players in that rewards for
     quests that no longer exist are removed, and unequal amounts based
     on modifiers of the past no longer persist.

   - A new modifier that we choose to apply would affect all players,
     not just for those quests they do in the future, but also those
     they have done in the past. 

   - Quests could become a true alternative to grinding, becoming
     worth vastly more than they are currently. There would be no
     need for a cap to qxp.

   - We could remove brutality.

   - Potential exists (though would need to be thought through) of the
     ability to transfer solution of quests between officially registered
     alts. In this way, players who dislike questing could benefit from
     having done them on one character, and having the chance to 
     transfer that accomplishment to others, perhaps as a reward for
     time spent in the game, or some other incentive-builder.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                   Submitted September, 2014, by Gorboth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This proposal addresses a few major issues that I see as problems, and that
many people complain about.

Firstly, quest experience currently functions in one primary way - it limits
the amount of combat experience you recieve based on brutality. If you don't
have enough quests, you much more quickly experience the soft cap and stop
feeling growth without tons of combat effort. Quests should not be mandatory.
Rather, they should be an alternative option for serious growth for those
people who do not enjoy *only* growing through the combat grind. The above
changes would allow us to disconnect questing and grinding entirely, so that
quests are no longer mandatory, but could be considered a fun and exciting
way to gain size in their own right. This would involve making them worth
MUCH more exp than they are now.

Secondly, quests are really inconsistent throughout the game in terms of
their quality and their rewards. The game has many, many truly wonderful
quests that are creative achievements that the game and their creators can
be proud of. The game also has many stupid, poorly-designed quests which
are either completely impossible without hints, or easily rendered unsolvable
by other players messing up the pieces, or the game not resetting them
properly. These sorts of quality issues deserve to be addressed, bringing
quests throughout the game to a higher standard of excellence that players
can enjoy. Also, we should not have some quests that are very easy to solve
be worth a ton of exp, and some that are dreadfully hard to solve be worth
relatively little. We need to go through them all and apply the same metric
for reward.

These two main issues are what I'd like to see solved with this effort. To
make it happen, we will first need to see interest from the player community.
I will wait to hear from people who know the quests like the back of their
hand. This sort of thing will take effort on the part of many people. We do
not have many people as wizards, and this has to start with players. If we
get this right, it can make a huge difference for the game, going forward, so
I invite you to seriously consider throwing your hat in the ring.

Once I hear from enough players (I'd like 5-10) will form a team and assign
roles to get it started. It will then be up to that team to tackle item #I
in the proposal above. That is the lion's share of the work, truth be told.
Once that has been done, it is relatively simple for a wizard to step in and
implement the changes that have been discussed and agreed upon by the team.

So ... if you like what you read above, then please contact me if you have
the knowledge, interest, and availability in being part of the process.

Thanks!
G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Ydred
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Posts: 237
Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Ydred » 26 Sep 2014 04:14

*****************************************************
This design has many implications. Among them:

- Quests could become a true alternative to grinding, becoming
worth vastly more than they are currently. There would be no
need for a cap to qxp.

- We could remove brutality.
******************************************************
These contradict each other.

Quests will never become a true alternative to griding if you dont remove brute. Brute affects every kill you make and the less brute you have is always better.

So if you dont remove brute then quests still must be done to have the lowest brute possible.

You make no sense.

All that thought to rap around and slap us with the marketing speech.

Most do not like Questing. Period.
Taking brute out is the only way to 'start' to work towards this.
We all have same brute .... regardless. Then it is fair no matter what you do.
Quests xps are just like any other xps i.e. General or Combat.
You can lose them when you die. And if you cant then Quest will give you a baseline over those who hate questing.
An advantage. (but depending on how big the baseline not huge since there is no brute i.e. quests make you hero baseline pretty solid advantage ... myth to much etc)
Anything else is just playing with words.

I keep hearing you say ... equality ..... but I see nothing of the sort mentioned.

Cotillion had the best solution and easiest.

Hell I would have been happy for you just to increaase the modifier by 33% ..... that would still make quests needed but only 200 or so (assuming you do big ones) to max out .... but if you want to do the full monty ... dont half assed it imho

Zar
Hero
Posts: 393
Joined: 21 Feb 2011 19:17

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Zar » 26 Sep 2014 05:16

Re:Ydred

First of all, I hate questing but I still respect people who loves it.
I think that give huge load of exp for quests is great both: If you remove brutality or even if you don't.
If you increase quest exp but keep quest cap the same, this will mean you need only small amount of quests to hit maximum qexp needed for brutality. All the rest of qexp just bonus for growing.

On other there are many players who love questing and are not fancy about grinding over and over again.
And we should respect them too.
You must admit we have a wonderful world around us and great number of wizard who created quests, invest time and great effort to make them interesting and challenging.

So Lets stay positive.

Ydred
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Posts: 237
Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Ydred » 26 Sep 2014 05:51

I think you miss my point.

I get you. But change it to change it. Not to make it the same.

I am believe I am being positive. If I seem harsh it is cause I am very against what he said.
That is just my opinion. I expect some backbone from G of all people.

But changing the system as he said is 100 not changing it at all. Feel free to clarify otherwise.

But please dont tell me I am harsh. I hardly got there ... just ask about my rants to MM while it was being recoded.
I can be much worse and less polite. But I was neither there.

I find it worse that I am having to defend normal thoughts in a heated subject ... than actually discussing the subject.

So lets stay on topic. My topic is I see it as an overly verbose circle.
Why all that work done to not remove brute entirely?
Part of the logic being that brute is what makes everything unequal.
So remove it 100%.

I conceed that if you have quests ... and they make a larger 'baseline' that would be a nice benefit.
Say .... you do quests and are hero baseline... so no matter how many times you die ... you are at least a hero.
That isnt a huge issue (with no brute). Myth would be way to much I think. Or at least I would find myself questing again to do that.
Which would bring us back to .... if you make the reward to big ... then people who hate questing ... would have to quest to keep up.

Brute has always been crap. IMHO. So I am 100% against keeping it under any regards. Especially to do all this change only to balance what brute unbalances ...a nd then keep it? Makes Zero sense.

As for your the people who love it part .... so far that isnt adding up at all.
In the poll Kvator did .... 16 wanted quest solutions public .... 6 wanted them removed ... 1 didnt care ... and 6 wanted to do them.
That means 23 over 6 ... or 4:1 almost ... didnt like quests as they are without solutions and an equal amount who 'love' quests ... hate them.
So 6 love ... 6 hate ... and 22 want public .... I would go with the 22 and also do some fun changes to the game ... like remove brute.


Lastly, if we just alter the modifier (20s or so) ... so that it is possible to get say 125% of MaxQxps ..... and players just turn in solutions for quests (many have files of this stuff), this would take almost no effort, we would have a very quick change everything and leave brute in.

Any change of this magnitude and effort ... a team of 5-10 etc .... seems to imply we should also get rid of brute. So why all the work? It just doesnt add up to me.

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gorboth
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Re: Quest Reform

Post by gorboth » 26 Sep 2014 07:28

Ydred,

I'm not sure why you think keeping brute is part of the picture here. One of the biggest changes this proposal would allow is to create something that *does* let us remove brute *entirely* as a concept for Genesis. There is no contradiction that I can see in the proposal, so please clarify why you think it remains.

And yes, I am very comfortable (and used to!) critique on such posts, and I recognize the difference between emotion on a topic and intent to be negative. I took your words as the former.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Ydred
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Posts: 237
Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Ydred » 26 Sep 2014 07:58

I quoted your words.

We could remove brutality.

Could ... is a hugely different meaning than should.

And should is still less than will.

If what you are saying is we 'will' remove brutality. Then I get it.

Otherwise, without that clarity .... I know how coulds can be used.
Symbolic logic taught me all I need to know about could.

So if I misunderstood, no issue. But I couldnt see past it :)
Now I will :)

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gorboth
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Location: Some old coffin

Re: Quest Reform

Post by gorboth » 26 Sep 2014 10:11

Oh! That makes sense. Sure, I didn't mean to sound ambigious. Yes, the plan here is to create a way that brutality is no longer something we use to limit growth via grinding for combat exp. But, that is just one aspect of a much larger plan that involves all the things I mentioned above. If we just wanted to remove brute, and do nothing more, we'd still have a really big problem with our quests being so inconsistent and (without brute) relatively meaningless. So, the idea is to package many needed things together with this proposal. Removal of brute is one of them.

Clearer?

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Amberlee
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Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Amberlee » 26 Sep 2014 11:22

What I think is that.
You do something way too complicated when the solution could be very easy.

Increase quest multiplier by say 50%
Anything that goes over the cap you have said gets added as general EXP.
Keep brute as it is in fact an efficient tool at regulating size and growth.

Truth be told questing is an archaic demand that people that is left in genesis pretty much lack the time for.
And it sure does not make people eager to solve impossible syntaxes in secluded often dangerous places.

In adition to that I would open for the possibility to transfer QEXP to your seconds.
Give players the possibility after having a second of so and so many days played share the same amount of QEXP as your main character.


All that said.
Our playerbase here is old.
All we do is loose players, we dont really gain any new ones.
You tried your way for a while now, and quite frankly, its not working.
It would probably have worked 10 years ago when people still had the time for chore like things when logging on.
Doesnt work anymore though.
Just kills any fun to be had in the game.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Amberlee
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Posts: 1394
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Amberlee » 26 Sep 2014 11:22

Deleted for double post :)
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Zar
Hero
Posts: 393
Joined: 21 Feb 2011 19:17

Re: Quest Reform

Post by Zar » 26 Sep 2014 14:48

amberlee wrote:What I think is that.
Increase quest multiplier by say 50%
I think that quest multiplier plays the role when quest is done.
So this is the solution for new players.
Old quests won't be affected.

I think Gorboth has nice solution that touches all problematic areas and will benefit for all types of players: grinders and questors

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