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I think the plateau idea will achieve very little when it comes to size differences. All is does is protect people from death if they chose not to grow after they reach a new mortal level. Which is an interesting idea, but will it really make PVP much more fun, or make it more balanced?

How many truly new players has reached Legend yet? 1? 2? It probably takes several years for an average truly new player to get there, and many will never make it. The plateau idea won't make them grow faster, and it won't make the already huge smaller either. It might actually have the opposite effect, and make the size differences bigger. Why? Well, it's quite likely some players will simply stop grinding once they reach a level, and just enjoy no death penalty instead. Which is the point of the idea. But that will also lead to an increase of the size gap compared to those players tho continue to grind, or are already huge. And I doubt it makes PVP-ing as a titan vs a huge myth a lot more fun just because you don't lose XP when you die. You still lose all the time in PVP, and losing all the time is no fun regardless if the penalty is nothing but gear.

I think this idea will shake things up a bit, but it's far from guaranteed to make things better. I might be wrong in my predictions, and it does make things a little bit better. Or nothing happens. Or worst case scenario, it makes things worse, increases the gap between players and makes PVP even less fun. The idea itself is interesting, but I don't think it will do much for PVP or size differences, unless it comes with a size cap at the last level. It's also a risky idea, since we don't know how it will play out, and it might just make things worse.

The auto recovery from death idea will have absolutely no effect I think, other than easing the pain of getting your bottom kicked all the time. However, it does not solve the underlying problem. PVP will still be just as uneven, and it won't become much more fun to lose, just you because you lose less. Like I mentioned above, losing all the time is still no fun.

There has been hundreds of ideas about this presented over the years, and I've read them all, thought about them all and my only conclusion is that the only REAL solution is to implement some type of size cap. Or size boost. Or size squeeze. The reason so many other games have chosen this, is because it works. I think we need to choose. Do we want Genesis to be a game where PVP is a fun part of the game, or do we want unlimited growth? Since so many players complain about the current PVP, we might even consider removing the ability to PVP, and take the step to a grind and RP game only? Or we cap, boost or squeeze the playerbase to achieve a more even population. It's one or the other in my opinion if we want happier players overall.

However, I think it's doable to both have a cap AND make grinding after you reach the cap more fun AND keep our myths in the game without hurting them too much. We rarely ever discuss what we actually could offer _instead_ of massive stats for continued grind after a potential stat cap. I think it's because many just see the word "cap" and immediately assume they will lose years of hard work and get nothing for it, and thus start the "refuse the stat cap" campaign.

It seems like most people assumes that if your stats become capped you also lose all your XP. That's NOT how it works. XP is one thing, stats another. XP turns into stats using a formula, but just because we change the formula for stats doesn't mean the XP itself is removed. So just because your stats doesn't grow after a certain point, you will still have tons of XP gathered, and you can keep gathering it, and we could do all sorts of fun things with all that XP. More fun things that stats ever do, because how fun is it really to grind grind grind and not watch your stats grow since you're far beyond supreme anyway? We could have much more interesting rewards than that for the grinders, rewards that can be a lot of fun, and powerful, but rewards that does not really make you more powerful in PVP, and if so, only by a tiny bit.

And what would that be? Well it could be ANYTHING. Titles, skills, spells, special abilities, your own guild, your own ship, autosaving equipment etc etc etc. Anything but stats. And anything that does not increase your PVP power more than very marginally. Stats isn't the only reward imaginable... and there's probably a whole lot of other rewards that are actually more fun to grind for. If you dare give the idea of grinding for something else than stats a chance that is.

The end result is that we end up with much more evenly matched players in PVP, and also an "endgame grind" that is a lot more fun than today's unrewarding system. I am very confident that replacing stats with something else after a certain level will do nothing but good things for ALL players. And that's very important. I think after the initial shock both new and old players would enjoy the game more.

So I dare everyone who is against a stat cap to come up with rewards other than stats, that you think would be fun to grind for instead. Surely there must be something?


18 Dec 2016 12:39
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Cherek wrote:
Of course the fact that we still have guilds that are not recoded definitely causes a lot of balance problems between "old" and "new" guilds.


Cherek, because in last 10 -15 years different guilds were recoded in different time, can you make a list of guilds that are in "new" system and that are not? I do belive it is not a parto of mystery?


18 Dec 2016 12:44
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kirsach wrote:
Cherek wrote:
Of course the fact that we still have guilds that are not recoded definitely causes a lot of balance problems between "old" and "new" guilds.


Cherek, because in last 10 -15 years different guilds were recoded in different time, can you make a list of guilds that are in "new" system and that are not? I do belive it is not a parto of mystery?


No that's not a secret, and there has been a number of such lists made, both on the forums and on the common board. We'd need to dig a little to find them though, and they probably need to be updated a little.


18 Dec 2016 12:53
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Idea is not a death plateau itself. Idea is to remove death recovery and replace it with death plateau. It will effectively work as stat cap in longer perspective, limiting size somewhere around myth, due to impossibility to stay on extr violent all the time.


18 Dec 2016 13:41
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Davvol wrote:
Idea is not a death plateau itself. Idea is to remove death recovery and replace it with death plateau. It will effectively work as stat cap in longer perspective, limiting size somewhere around myth, due to impossibility to stay on extr violent all the time.


Well as long as you don't die there's nothing stopping you from staying huge though? The idea has merit, but I only see it solving parts of the problem if implemented on its own. New players will still have years to go before being anything but cannon fodder in PVP, so that problem still remains, and also currently big players will remain far above everyone else for a long time unless they die a couple of times. Which is unlikely to happen unless they are careless, which they usually are not.


18 Dec 2016 14:58
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Cherek wrote:
Davvol wrote:
Idea is not a death plateau itself. Idea is to remove death recovery and replace it with death plateau. It will effectively work as stat cap in longer perspective, limiting size somewhere around myth, due to impossibility to stay on extr violent all the time.


Well as long as you don't die there's nothing stopping you from staying huge though? The idea has merit, but I only see it solving parts of the problem if implemented on its own. New players will still have years to go before being anything but cannon fodder in PVP, so that problem still remains, and also currently big players will remain far above everyone else for a long time unless they die a couple of times. Which is unlikely to happen unless they are careless, which they usually are not.



Well aye, but there will be more myths to combat this, sooner or later 4-5 of their victims are myths aswell and can gang up and fight back better than now, and they will prolly have acces to better gear


18 Dec 2016 15:26
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The brute system itself could be recoded. I've written about this in an earlier post.

nils wrote:
This problem is actually not that hard to solve, but it requires a recode of the brute system.

Since I started playing the combat-system (more noticable the hit-messages) has changed. Mortal levels have increased. Stats themselves have increased. Progress-levels have increased. Health-levels have increased. We've even got an indicator of how far we're from the next mortal-level.

Now, what has really stood still is the brute. If one increases the amount of brute-levels, while increase the amount of exp recieved on the lower levels and decreased the amount on the very top we would get the result that smaller players would grow bigger, faster. And bigger players would grow more or less the in the same pace, if constructed properly.

To ensure that the bigger players do not get angry, claiming another nerf, one must make sure that the amount of grind neccessary from novice to myth remains the same, but the speed up to let's say champion-legend is halved - details can ofcourse be both discussed and modified. Only an example guys!

This would also cure the game of the so called "gap".

Big recodes have happened in the past. They will happen in the future. This one is totally viable, and makes the game more or equally enjoyable for all - and even Ody with his 100-odd days could become legend if he only stopped yapping for a few days. :)



With faster xp at the bottom these 2-years-still-not-legend-players will hit myth. If thought through, it might impact recovery somewhat too, no?


18 Dec 2016 15:42
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Nils: Boosting players at earlier levels is a simple matter technically and would of course make them bigger quicker. It would also cause an increased inflation of player sizes which probably will affect grinding areas and general content in the game, which probably isn't big enough as it is. What worries me about a boost with goal to create a lot more myths is that we'll end up having to upgrade large parts of the game's content to make it fit the now much bigger playerbase. For PVP alone it would of course even things out though, depending on how far we and how quick we boost players. A boost is definitely a fairly non-controversial way to improve things too, even though I bet some older players will still be upset that new players will have it easier to grow than they had.

I think a more complete solution is to adjust both extremes on our curve. That is, boost early levels some, and decrease the maximum size some, replacing it with different types of rewards. Then we'd in theory end up with a playerbase that is both reasonably even in size, and a playerbase that also fit the current Genesis content with less need to upgrade stuff. In my idea growth would be doubled to hero size, then slow down and be like it is today, and after legend it would be extremely slow. So most players would be in the hero-legend range, with newbie myth being the extremely big ones, and the myth title would return to actually reflect the name. Being truly mythical, something special, and something very few reach.


18 Dec 2016 17:03
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Cherek wrote:
Nils: Boosting players at earlier levels is a simple matter technically and would of course make them bigger quicker. It would also cause an increased inflation of player sizes which probably will affect grinding areas and general content in the game, which probably isn't big enough as it is. What worries me about a boost with goal to create a lot more myths is that we'll end up having to upgrade large parts of the game's content to make it fit the now much bigger playerbase. For PVP alone it would of course even things out though, depending on how far we and how quick we boost players. A boost is definitely a fairly non-controversial way to improve things too, even though I bet some older players will still be upset that new players will have it easier to grow than they had.

I think a more complete solution is to adjust both extremes on our curve. That is, boost early levels some, and decrease the maximum size some, replacing it with different types of rewards. Then we'd in theory end up with a playerbase that is both reasonably even in size, and a playerbase that also fit the current Genesis content with less need to upgrade stuff. In my idea growth would be doubled to hero size, then slow down and be like it is today, and after legend it would be extremely slow. So most players would be in the hero-legend range, with newbie myth being the extremely big ones, and the myth title would return to actually reflect the name. Being truly mythical, something special, and something very few reach.



First of all, there are barely and grinding areas since a huge amount of areas are nerfed to shit, shaws etc. Also, it would help combat the crying from pvp.
The myth level should have never been added tbh, should have stopped at Champ.


18 Dec 2016 18:25
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Well, my knowledge of code is severly limited, but I'd say boosting/reducing size of a couple npcs (many of the same npc require one file, no?) isn't a huge of a deal. Quite sure some of the lieges will be chuffed to improve on their mobs + it could serve as a real life training ground for up and coming coders. Fiddling with mobs, error correction can be done fairly swift. What could possibly go wrong? It's just mobs for crying out loud.

Many of the unused grinds today need this kind of attention regardless of changes prior. And by any estimates, the amount of myths will increase as time goes by. They need a place to hunt.

Draugor mentioned Trollshaws. I'll add Kabal as a whole to that one. Varian made a great area in Gondor, but for technical reasons it's not profitable, and now serves as Avatar's home away from home.

One could argue that the trolls in Terel are very prolific and it's a crowded area - add a few rooms, more trolls. Simple gestures - "visible for all"-code by the new wizards. Everyone wins.


18 Dec 2016 19:21
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