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Myth

Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14
Posts: 1594
Dread wrote:
Lol, there you go with "entitled" again. This is not a job. This is a game. It has nothing to do with hating you. It has to do with thinking you are entitled to something beyond enjoyment in playing the game. Can you point me to the rule/forum where it says that old players are more important? The "crying of one-month olds" is disregarded. As should be the bitter moaning/bitching of decade+ players who want to keep their advantages just because they have been here years. Your age is irrelevant. My point with Bonk was that years of playing being deleted from the game changed nothing. Any other player that has put years and years into this game being deleted would change nothing. As much as everyone wants to believe that they are special little snowflakes, no player is that important to the continuance of Genesis.

I believe I mentioned that I think there should be something to grind for, I think it should take years and years to reach the upper levels. However, that thing should NOT have any bearing on PVP.


You're the one that started saying entitled to begin with :P Now you cry that I reply to it? Really? If you're the future of genesis, its a sad day indeed :P

The levels will even out with the removal of qexp, and it will do so rather fast at that since you will be able to reach the same size but ALOT faster, and you wont be ubergimping the shit out of the people that have actually spent some damn time here :P Qexp is whats REALLY stopping your growth to some damn size, that and the fact that some of the newbies today never know when to not mouth off to the huge players in the game and thus annoy their characters, ofc we're going to run a sword through you if you stand there and go "Move bitch! Get outa the way!"


You and the insane idea of hardcapping at... what? Newbie myth? This IS what you're suggesting right? Sure, lets go with newbie myth, not like you'll ever get there, now, what are people going to do when they reach this level? Just go on a killing spree and keep you from ever reaching even legend? The pvp rules are still free and I'm thinking they will be kept free considering how long they have tried to do something about it.

It will backfire so bad once the myths max out and start feeling bored, thats when they go on a griefing spree (we've seen it before so yes, it WILL happen), and considering the incredible bickering of every little fight, that wont do much good :P Or you wanna cap at Titan? Make a HUGE chunk of the game obsolete? :P Or you wanna have the wizards that are already overworked to meganerf the game to your level? :P Just cause you cant get up?

Honestly, its not hard to get ALOT of size if you just shut up, grind the quests (and yes, I KNOW its horrible) untill there are none left, and then get xping, its very easy to reach Myth within a year even for a newbie if you do that.

And Bonk leaving, it did effect the game, the Calians now are out a big gear collector and person that can take people on grinding trips and thus help them grow. It also made the Calians off limits to the BDA since the war ended (untill some dumbass decide to start it up again, and yes, there are plenty of those on the Calian side too)<---Now I really want you to pay attention to the "Too" I put in there so I dont get a bunch of crying with me calling all calians dumbasses cause I've been bda and blabla.

If you had any clue whatsoever, you'd go for softcapping around myth, a heavy softcap and the removal of qexp, it would give people a reason to keep playing above myth and it would have the sizes even out since you dont have to waste time doing insane quests, insane amounts of insane quests. Lotsa insane there now so I'll leave it at that.


27 Dec 2016 01:47
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Great Adventurer

Joined: 12 Mar 2010 23:53
Posts: 188
Draugor wrote:
Dread wrote:
Lol, there you go with "entitled" again. This is not a job. This is a game. It has nothing to do with hating you. It has to do with thinking you are entitled to something beyond enjoyment in playing the game. Can you point me to the rule/forum where it says that old players are more important? The "crying of one-month olds" is disregarded. As should be the bitter moaning/bitching of decade+ players who want to keep their advantages just because they have been here years. Your age is irrelevant. My point with Bonk was that years of playing being deleted from the game changed nothing. Any other player that has put years and years into this game being deleted would change nothing. As much as everyone wants to believe that they are special little snowflakes, no player is that important to the continuance of Genesis.

I believe I mentioned that I think there should be something to grind for, I think it should take years and years to reach the upper levels. However, that thing should NOT have any bearing on PVP.


You're the one that started saying entitled to begin with :P Now you cry that I reply to it? Really? If you're the future of genesis, its a sad day indeed :P

The levels will even out with the removal of qexp, and it will do so rather fast at that since you will be able to reach the same size but ALOT faster, and you wont be ubergimping the shit out of the people that have actually spent some damn time here :P Qexp is whats REALLY stopping your growth to some damn size, that and the fact that some of the newbies today never know when to not mouth off to the huge players in the game and thus annoy their characters, ofc we're going to run a sword through you if you stand there and go "Move bitch! Get outa the way!"


You and the insane idea of hardcapping at... what? Newbie myth? This IS what you're suggesting right? Sure, lets go with newbie myth, not like you'll ever get there, now, what are people going to do when they reach this level? Just go on a killing spree and keep you from ever reaching even legend? The pvp rules are still free and I'm thinking they will be kept free considering how long they have tried to do something about it.

It will backfire so bad once the myths max out and start feeling bored, thats when they go on a griefing spree (we've seen it before so yes, it WILL happen), and considering the incredible bickering of every little fight, that wont do much good :P Or you wanna cap at Titan? Make a HUGE chunk of the game obsolete? :P Or you wanna have the wizards that are already overworked to meganerf the game to your level? :P Just cause you cant get up?

Honestly, its not hard to get ALOT of size if you just shut up, grind the quests (and yes, I KNOW its horrible) untill there are none left, and then get xping, its very easy to reach Myth within a year even for a newbie if you do that.

And Bonk leaving, it did effect the game, the Calians now are out a big gear collector and person that can take people on grinding trips and thus help them grow. It also made the Calians off limits to the BDA since the war ended (untill some dumbass decide to start it up again, and yes, there are plenty of those on the Calian side too)<---Now I really want you to pay attention to the "Too" I put in there so I dont get a bunch of crying with me calling all calians dumbasses cause I've been bda and blabla.

If you had any clue whatsoever, you'd go for softcapping around myth, a heavy softcap and the removal of qexp, it would give people a reason to keep playing above myth and it would have the sizes even out since you dont have to waste time doing insane quests, insane amounts of insane quests. Lotsa insane there now so I'll leave it at that.


I started using the word for what you were saying. "I want the dedicated players to get something for all the damn time they put in..." is the definition of entitlement. Such sorry personal attacks. Would you like to call me some more names? Or can you discuss this without it? As for being the "future" of Genesis, I just want it to have one other than being a haven for grinders. Is that all you want from this? Keep in mind, I am ok with yes as an answer. I just want to know. Despite your personal attacks for no reason, I am also the "past" of Genesis. Shit, if you were born 15 years ago, I am 7 years older than you. I can remember when PVP was a hoot. Can't you? Does what we have now in any way resemble what it was then? Sure doesn't seem like it to me.

Should there be a cap, and where would the cap be? I don't know, that certainly needs some discussion. If you would read what I said, I didn't disagree with anything you said, other than old players are entitled to win pvp because they are older. I think anyone should be useful in PVP, and most fucking certainly a danger to anyone long before they have played for years. I completely agree that there should be something older players should have to strive for, I have said, and will say again that once we discover where that cap is we could apply everything over that to whatever happens to be the new "shiny" thing for which to grind. What I am trying to get across that you have not responded to in any way other than insults is this: Whatever that grind goal is, it should not be tied to PVP.

Do you really think that what I am bitching about here is just that I am small? Really? I've been big. Getting big again wouldn't take all that long. I don't need to "shut up and grind some quests". As a really old player, questing isn't an issue for me. Even given that fact, I would have no problem removing them, even though that will never happen. I would most certainly support making them non-necessary for everyone else and those to come. I am only trying to discuss what changes could be made to make PVP, admittedly the most interesting thing in gaming to me, fun for the majority again.

Anyway you could try to continue this discussion without insults? Or is that beyond you?


27 Dec 2016 02:15
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Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36
Posts: 2618
Chill people, I am too exhausted from Christmas food to start moving around posts to flames, and I certainly don't feel like going down in the basement to fire up the thread-o-bot. Be nice! It's Christmas. Speaking of, Julio does not like people insulting each other at all, and might pack up the lottery if people aren't nice during Christmas!

And I am not joking!


27 Dec 2016 03:04
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Myth

Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14
Posts: 1594
Dread wrote:

I started using the word for what you were saying. "I want the dedicated players to get something for all the damn time they put in..." is the definition of entitlement. Such sorry personal attacks. Would you like to call me some more names? Or can you discuss this without it? As for being the "future" of Genesis, I just want it to have one other than being a haven for grinders. Is that all you want from this? Keep in mind, I am ok with yes as an answer. I just want to know. Despite your personal attacks for no reason, I am also the "past" of Genesis. Shit, if you were born 15 years ago, I am 7 years older than you. I can remember when PVP was a hoot. Can't you? Does what we have now in any way resemble what it was then? Sure doesn't seem like it to me.

Should there be a cap, and where would the cap be? I don't know, that certainly needs some discussion. If you would read what I said, I didn't disagree with anything you said, other than old players are entitled to win pvp because they are older. I think anyone should be useful in PVP, and most fucking certainly a danger to anyone long before they have played for years. I completely agree that there should be something older players should have to strive for, I have said, and will say again that once we discover where that cap is we could apply everything over that to whatever happens to be the new "shiny" thing for which to grind. What I am trying to get across that you have not responded to in any way other than insults is this: Whatever that grind goal is, it should not be tied to PVP.

Do you really think that what I am bitching about here is just that I am small? Really? I've been big. Getting big again wouldn't take all that long. I don't need to "shut up and grind some quests". As a really old player, questing isn't an issue for me. Even given that fact, I would have no problem removing them, even though that will never happen. I would most certainly support making them non-necessary for everyone else and those to come. I am only trying to discuss what changes could be made to make PVP, admittedly the most interesting thing in gaming to me, fun for the majority again.

Anyway you could try to continue this discussion without insults? Or is that beyond you?


No, thats the definition of working for something and not just have someone come in and yank it away cause they think its unfair that they arent on the same level fast enough.

There are alot of older players that get their arse kicked by younger ones, not the tons of GA's and adepts, but honestly, they need to hush, and quest. Thats whats required of everyone as long as qexp remains, and its required ALOT, how are you not seeing that?

I will clarify the age thing, the age makes size, since it makes time spend usually GRINDING to their current level, so lets instead say... all the xp above myth that they have grinded, and some are gigantic and have spent a TON of time getting to that size, hours of grinding, hell days even weeks.
And yes, the gigantic ones are oooold, but they are putting the time in to grow. Making a myth is easy, making a big myth takes time. Quest like a lunatic and scream as the horribly made quests drive you insane and the ones that arent completely terrible are just time consuming and to be frank, boring. Personally, I dont mind grinding, I prefer RPing, but not the church touching kinda crap thats standard, or pvping.
And all to many people confuse standing around babbling with RPing, if I as a BDA soldier kill a knight, I've played my role. As will they if they kill me as a BDA soldier, hell if the Calians ever catch up to me and kill me, thats been their role too, and I've been on their list for... probably 10ish years.

If you're around 100ish days and not atleast legend, you're not even trying to grow, or you havent done the needed questing wich is a requirement for getting some size, hence the "Shut up and quest", its actually the advice I've given a few newbies after explaining how xp works, they are growing nicely now and actually enjoying the game as they pick off level after level. Ofc after giving them a doc with solutions for the more insane things in the game so its actually doable.
If you dont put the time and effort in to grow, you SHOULDNT be on the same level as those that did. The only actually hard part about growing is questing, since some are hidden and only findeable more or less with the quest documents that are circulating.

Or should a GA be able to beat the crap out of a myth for some insane and very hard to defend reason from a rp perspective? The wizards of genesis wont implement something like this without an actual in game mechanic that would explain it I'd think, hopefully they wouldnt.
Also, you still matter at low levels, against other low levels, dont wanna get nuked? Dont join warring guilds, there's a chance big people will come after you, its actually rather simple? Knights recruiting adepts before they have even looked at the evil quests for the xp they so sorely needs is just hampering the character, as with calians, its alot more advanageous to stay neutral untill you've done the quests on the opposite side. And if you want some size, you damn well better do them.
Also dont outright attack them or act like a prick to them. The "Move bitch get outa the way" I wrote above actually happens with some of the new kids we have today, and ofc they get killed as they bloody should.

I have yet to call you any names that I can see, I have suggested that you cry ***** and moan, and I have yet to see anything to change that. The "Sad day instead" statement is an observation. Stop making shit up.


27 Dec 2016 11:35
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Wanderer

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 16:03
Posts: 52
Here we go again discussing stat cap as a solution to something before it is even established that it is the cause of the problem.
Correlation does not imply causation - just because there are big myths that are successful at PvP doesn't mean that the main reason is that they have huge stats.

(I recycled some of the following text from another post from 3+ years ago)

As someone w/ big (huge?) stats, I think I can safely say that stats by themselves don't make that much difference. Rather it's quite arbitrary depending on how the specials in your guild are implemented.

For instance I would say what makes the most impact for a fighter is:
1. How specials are implemented - over the years I've seen myself outperformed damage-wise by much smaller players in other guilds.
2. Weapon and armour quality - I rarely have the energy to get top gear and much smaller players w/ top gear can outperform me
3. Skills - unless you have a really top weapon it doesn't matter much what level of skill you have since you either don't hit or don't get through armour. (Actually there should be an option to turn off normal attacks to reduce spam. j/k ;) )
4. Speed - see 3, not much point in missing at a higher rate ;) Unless you're lucky and your special is affected by speed, then I would put this as 2. Btw, unless it hasn't changed I think it's wrong that it's not standardized how specials are affected by speed.
5. Raw stats. Dex, Con, Str.

So before looking at a stat cap as a solution I would suggest trying some alternatives first to shake up the balance:
1. Review (and standardize if it hasn't been done already) how specials are allowed to be affected by stats, gear, guildstat, speed, etc across fighting guilds. Here is a good place to introduce diminishing returns/soft caps. I.e. a special attack from a from an über myth shouldn't be that much more powerful than the one of a legend.
2. Increase the importance skills. People max out on skills quite fast. Make them matter more in fights (well, matter at all really) compared to stats and weapon quality.
3. Lower the importance of weapon quality. Keep the to hit/damage levels of top gear but raise the levels of poor/average gear considerably.
4. Make armour protection more random. Currently if you have a high level of armour protection you are virtually invulnerable vs normal attacks because they rarely make more damage than the armour protects.

Also, a final observation, there doesn't seem to be much inflation in myths does there?
I've hardly been grinding at all the past 5+ years and I'm still roughly at the same spot I used to be.

/M


27 Dec 2016 16:18
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Adept

Joined: 27 Jan 2016 18:42
Posts: 127
what mumon say

mumon is ok, no one is read this thread anymore from is all whine and no new things

whiners gonta whine

_________________
Somebody send this to me when I start:

Genesis Start Guide


27 Dec 2016 16:49
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Great Adventurer

Joined: 12 Mar 2010 23:53
Posts: 188
Draugor wrote:
No, thats the definition of working for something and not just have someone come in and yank it away cause they think its unfair that they arent on the same level fast enough.


I don't think you can have a successful PVP game where a person can join and not be able to compete for year(s). That is the point I am trying to make. PVP in this game, to read the forums, has degenerated to nothing more than punitive griefing, and whining here. Sounds like a blast.

Draugor wrote:
There are alot of older players that get their arse kicked by younger ones, not the tons of GA's and adepts, but honestly, they need to hush, and quest. Thats whats required of everyone as long as qexp remains, and its required ALOT, how are you not seeing that?


FFS DOOD, I DO SEE IT!!!! Is that big enough for you? Do you even read what I wrote??? I agree with you! There is a 10+ page post about how much I hate questing and talking about how it should not be necessary! You posted in it!

Good grief man. I get that you don't agree with me on some points, but we do agree on quite a bit. So stop acting like I am bitching and moaning just because we aren't 100% in alignment. I am not addressing the questing here because I have done so before. We have been flat out told questing isn't going away, and I think we can both agree it shouldn't. We both agree it should not be necessary for size. What exactly is your proposal here? Quest XP and Kill XP are the same thing? No more brute? Sure, I have no problem with that. I don't think that will fix PVP though, which is what I am talking about here. You think that would be enough? What I am trying to get across is that there should be a way for EVERYONE to have fun in PVP. For EVERYONE to be useful. Do you even agree with this premise? If so, what are your ideas? Do you think just making quest exp unnessecary is enough? I don't. As I said before, and will again, maybe a STAT cap is not the answer. I have seen a working bloodlust system that made it undesirable to kill lower players unless they initiated it. The greater the difference in size, the more penalty. Something like that could work too. I am sure there are other ideas as well. That is what I am trying to get people to talk about. If we keep throwing out ideas, maybe, just maybe, someone will come up with something that works and doesn't piss off one segment of the population. The problem with something like that is, as the wizards have routinely stated, the harder it is to code, the less likely it will get done.

Draugor wrote:
I will clarify the age thing, the age makes size, since it makes time spend usually GRINDING to their current level, so lets instead say... all the xp above myth that they have grinded, and some are gigantic and have spent a TON of time getting to that size, hours of grinding, hell days even weeks.
And yes, the gigantic ones are oooold, but they are putting the time in to grow. Making a myth is easy, making a big myth takes time. Quest like a lunatic and scream as the horribly made quests drive you insane and the ones that arent completely terrible are just time consuming and to be frank, boring. Personally, I dont mind grinding, I prefer RPing, but not the church touching kinda crap thats standard, or pvping.
And all to many people confuse standing around babbling with RPing, if I as a BDA soldier kill a knight, I've played my role. As will they if they kill me as a BDA soldier, hell if the Calians ever catch up to me and kill me, thats been their role too, and I've been on their list for... probably 10ish years.

If you're around 100ish days and not atleast legend, you're not even trying to grow, or you havent done the needed questing wich is a requirement for getting some size, hence the "Shut up and quest", its actually the advice I've given a few newbies after explaining how xp works, they are growing nicely now and actually enjoying the game as they pick off level after level. Ofc after giving them a doc with solutions for the more insane things in the game so its actually doable.
If you dont put the time and effort in to grow, you SHOULDNT be on the same level as those that did. The only actually hard part about growing is questing, since some are hidden and only findeable more or less with the quest documents that are circulating.


I don't have a problem with anything you said here. I do think that decoupling stats from the insane grind is a good idea. You disagree and that's fine. That doesn't mean either of us is "whining or moaning".

Draugor wrote:
Or should a GA be able to beat the crap out of a myth for some insane and very hard to defend reason from a rp perspective? The wizards of genesis wont implement something like this without an actual in game mechanic that would explain it I'd think, hopefully they wouldnt.
Also, you still matter at low levels, against other low levels, dont wanna get nuked? Dont join warring guilds, there's a chance big people will come after you, its actually rather simple? Knights recruiting adepts before they have even looked at the evil quests for the xp they so sorely needs is just hampering the character, as with calians, its alot more advanageous to stay neutral untill you've done the quests on the opposite side. And if you want some size, you damn well better do them.
Also dont outright attack them or act like a prick to them. The "Move bitch get outa the way" I wrote above actually happens with some of the new kids we have today, and ofc they get killed as they bloody should.


Of course a single GA should not beat the crap out of a myth. A couple of them together should be a threat, though, yes. All the guilds should be given the skills and utilities to be useful in PVP from a very early age.

Draugor wrote:
I have yet to call you any names that I can see, I have suggested that you cry ***** and moan, and I have yet to see anything to change that. The "Sad day instead" statement is an observation. Stop making shit up.


Anything that doesn't agree with you seems to be "crying and moaning". What a coincedence. All I am trying to do is get people to talk about PVP. I have yet to see a single post that seriously states PVP is good. No change needed. Does anyone think that? Is there a problem discussing it? I have tried to answer any question I have been asked, and give my opinion. Other people have other opinions, and that is fine. Trying to find a solution that the majority enjoy is the point. It is possible to discuss them without condescending each other and trying to diminish anyones opinion as just "crying and moaning". The 'Sad day instead' may have been an observation, it was also directed at me personally, and meant as an insult, don't pretend now that it wasn't.


Last edited by Dread on 27 Dec 2016 20:12, edited 1 time in total.



27 Dec 2016 19:54
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Great Adventurer

Joined: 12 Mar 2010 23:53
Posts: 188
Mumon wrote:
Here we go again discussing stat cap as a solution to something before it is even established that it is the cause of the problem.
Correlation does not imply causation - just because there are big myths that are successful at PvP doesn't mean that the main reason is that they have huge stats.

(I recycled some of the following text from another post from 3+ years ago)

As someone w/ big (huge?) stats, I think I can safely say that stats by themselves don't make that much difference. Rather it's quite arbitrary depending on how the specials in your guild are implemented.

For instance I would say what makes the most impact for a fighter is:
1. How specials are implemented - over the years I've seen myself outperformed damage-wise by much smaller players in other guilds.
2. Weapon and armour quality - I rarely have the energy to get top gear and much smaller players w/ top gear can outperform me
3. Skills - unless you have a really top weapon it doesn't matter much what level of skill you have since you either don't hit or don't get through armour. (Actually there should be an option to turn off normal attacks to reduce spam. j/k ;) )
4. Speed - see 3, not much point in missing at a higher rate ;) Unless you're lucky and your special is affected by speed, then I would put this as 2. Btw, unless it hasn't changed I think it's wrong that it's not standardized how specials are affected by speed.
5. Raw stats. Dex, Con, Str.

So before looking at a stat cap as a solution I would suggest trying some alternatives first to shake up the balance:
1. Review (and standardize if it hasn't been done already) how specials are allowed to be affected by stats, gear, guildstat, speed, etc across fighting guilds. Here is a good place to introduce diminishing returns/soft caps. I.e. a special attack from a from an über myth shouldn't be that much more powerful than the one of a legend.
2. Increase the importance skills. People max out on skills quite fast. Make them matter more in fights (well, matter at all really) compared to stats and weapon quality.
3. Lower the importance of weapon quality. Keep the to hit/damage levels of top gear but raise the levels of poor/average gear considerably.
4. Make armour protection more random. Currently if you have a high level of armour protection you are virtually invulnerable vs normal attacks because they rarely make more damage than the armour protects.

Also, a final observation, there doesn't seem to be much inflation in myths does there?
I've hardly been grinding at all the past 5+ years and I'm still roughly at the same spot I used to be.

/M


1. I agree, and I wrote about this previously. We were told that the disparity in specials is part of the intentional RPS aspect of the game and should not expect that even though 2 guilds are similar their power should be commensurate.
2. Agree 100%. I also think guilds should be given more utility skills for PVP in particular. I also mentioned this earlier.
3. I agree with this as well.
4. I agree to an extent. I think there is a large disparity in ones ability to protect oneself from physical attacks vs magical attacks that needs to change.

I think I agree with what you are saying about stats. The amount that stats act as a force multiplier to certain guilds power is an issue. Perhaps guild abilities could be adjusted instead of stats.


27 Dec 2016 20:05
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Champion
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010 11:36
Posts: 606
I agree to everything, make it so.


27 Dec 2016 20:21
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Great Adventurer
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Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13
Posts: 185
All this talk about removing quests gives me a headache. I agree that some quests require a high degree of autism to complete without docs, but that doesn't prompt the removal of their neccessity. Have you all gone mad?


28 Dec 2016 13:45
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