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Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware
https://www.genesismud.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4078
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Author:  Kvator [ 18 Jul 2017 00:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Arman wrote:
Kvator wrote:
So you basically deleted and banned person who didn't break ANY rules*? Additionally you made him open for public lynching (for the 'whining mob') within the game. Afterwards you described him as 'cockroach' in a note made as admin of the game...

Well done sir! Great 'new (old-new in this case) sheriff in town' attitude. 100% professional!

Like you couldn't just ban 'steal' command until case is resolved or something like that.

* killing, message-spamming and quest disruption are mentioned in a 'griefing' part.


This is not a new rule or even a questionable interpretation of existing rules. We have player file notes going back decades on spam stealer warnings for harassment. It is griefing and is against the rules. The player obstinately didn't want to discuss their actions, provide a reasonable defence, or repent. Creative ban hammering ensures.

Whether it is kill or say or steal, use your commands responsibly.


There is not a single word in official 'help rules' section about stealing/thievery etc.

If something's broken (and it seems that stealing is atm) and it's not essential for the game (like kill command) then you can easily switch it off until it's fixed. Instead of doing witch hunt based on 'interpretations'.

Author:  Cherek [ 18 Jul 2017 01:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

As a former AoP, i can say that spamming steal or another command is NOT against the rules on its own. It's quite natural to spam "steal/borrow" if you want to steal something from someone. That's how the command works. (If that's good or bad is another discussion) However basically any command in the game can be used for harassment and griefing. So like Arman said, it's definitely possible to use the steal command for harassment and griefing, and that IS against the rules, and has been enforced before.

Now, I am assuming the person described in the note did use his command in a griefing way, and that's a rule that is very open for interpretation, and probably always will be. When I was AoP we discussed if this could be clarified somehow, but eventually decided to leave griefing and harassment quite open to interpration, since there is just so many ways people can do it. It can be done using game commands like kill or steal, or verbally, using emotes, using free emotes, or out of the game stuff, etc, etc. There's no way to cover all possibilities in a rule, and therefore it was left quite open, and listing a few common examples. And as Gorboth did say, an attempt was made to speak to the player in question, but clearly that was not helpful.

So Kvator, simply spamming "steal" is not against the rules, however griefing/harassment is, and that seems to have been the rule that was broken here, and that's a rule that covers a lot of different things and kind of has to be judged case by case, since those cases tend to be quite different from each other.

Author:  Arman [ 18 Jul 2017 01:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Kvator wrote:
Arman wrote:
Kvator wrote:
So you basically deleted and banned person who didn't break ANY rules*? Additionally you made him open for public lynching (for the 'whining mob') within the game. Afterwards you described him as 'cockroach' in a note made as admin of the game...

Well done sir! Great 'new (old-new in this case) sheriff in town' attitude. 100% professional!

Like you couldn't just ban 'steal' command until case is resolved or something like that.

* killing, message-spamming and quest disruption are mentioned in a 'griefing' part.


This is not a new rule or even a questionable interpretation of existing rules. We have player file notes going back decades on spam stealer warnings for harassment. It is griefing and is against the rules. The player obstinately didn't want to discuss their actions, provide a reasonable defence, or repent. Creative ban hammering ensures.

Whether it is kill or say or steal, use your commands responsibly.


There is not a single word in official 'help rules' section about stealing/thievery etc.

If something's broken (and it seems that stealing is atm) and it's not essential for the game (like kill command) then you can easily switch it off until it's fixed. Instead of doing witch hunt based on 'interpretations'.


Stealing isn't broken. It is a legitimate play option just like combat. And just like combat it can be misused by players to grief other players, which is what happened here.

Author:  Kvator [ 18 Jul 2017 01:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Cherek wrote:
So Kvator, simply spamming "steal" is not against the rules, however griefing/harassment is, and that seems to have been the rule that was broken here, and that's a rule that covers a lot of different things and kind of has to be judged case by case, since those cases tend to be quite different from each other.


So how many times I can steal-spam per minute till it'll become considered as harassment? It depends on anything? (time of the day, size of the victim, antyhing). Can we assume that 12 steal tries per minute is fine, but anything above is no-no?

You really believe that public lynching of a person (who is not breaking any written rule of the game and is just acting against 'interpretation of the rule made by certain individual') is a better solution than fixing the problem? :) (expanding the cooldown of steal command doesn't sounds that complex - just like turning it off for some time in case wizards are considering more complex solution to it).

Arman wrote:
Stealing isn't broken. It is a legitimate play option just like combat. And just like combat it can be misused by players to grief other players, which is what happened here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVCtkzIXYzQ

Action taken by Gorboth tells us otherwise (I don't remember anyone being deleted/site-banned with official note bragging bout the fact due to harassment done via combat which can actually cause more dmg to the victims)

Author:  Ody [ 18 Jul 2017 01:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

I think what Kvator is saying is that if the system is busted fix it before banning people who use it. If you don't want the system abused add a cool down between steal attempts.

Author:  Sibbedidenn [ 18 Jul 2017 02:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Kvator, you're not trying to "Be Like Fenn"(TM) are you? We know what happens to those guys... Guys?


Kidding

Author:  Kvator [ 18 Jul 2017 02:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Sibbedidenn wrote:
Kvator, you're not trying to "Be Like Fenn"(TM) are you? We know what happens to those guys... Guys?


Kidding


Depends on interpretation :D

regarding the point of ur joke - well since we have ppl deleted for things done outside the game and now ppl deleted due to "interpretations"... lets see what's next!

Author:  Sibbedidenn [ 18 Jul 2017 03:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Right, is there forum griefing; say or kill or steal or [submit]!

Use your commands responsibly
Kvator wrote:
Sibbedidenn wrote:
Kvator, you're not trying to "Be Like Fenn"(TM) are you? We know what happens to those guys... Guys?


Kidding


Depends on interpretation :D

regarding the point of ur joke - well since we have ppl deleted for things done outside the game and now ppl deleted due to "interpretations"... lets see what's next!



Watch it Kvator, I think any more than three quotes within quotes and we have a problem here...

Author:  Sibbedidenn [ 18 Jul 2017 03:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

Right, is there forum griefing; say or kill or steal or [submit]!

Use your commands responsibly
Kvator wrote:
Sibbedidenn wrote:
Kvator, you're not trying to "Be Like Fenn"(TM) are you? We know what happens to those guys... Guys?


Kidding


Depends on interpretation :D

regarding the point of ur joke - well since we have ppl deleted for things done outside the game and now ppl deleted due to "interpretations"... lets see what's next!



Watch it Kvator, I think any more than three quotes within quotes and we have a problem here...

Author:  Kvator [ 18 Jul 2017 03:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Would-be Grief-Thieves - beware

u just double posted - cya!

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