Bounce mechanic change.

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mallor
Rising Hero
Posts: 371
Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by mallor » 19 Jan 2018 18:51

Carnak wrote: Do we really want a bunch of Jo-Jo's in genesis? bouncing in and out every other second. In my opinion, if you leave the room, you should be at a disadvantage. You're turning your back on someone to run away, be it strategically or not. If you want to utilize this to drag someone to a blockable room or something, you can always stop using your specials or run during cooldown (if you have the presence of mind to do so).
Bouncing in and out every second would be stupid, moving rooms happens in PvP, it happens a lot if you know what you're doing, have knowledge about specials of your enemy and know how to count seconds. The alternative is standing in the same room, exchanging hits, and the only tactics would be to hit your specials as soon as they are ready. BORING!

Alteor
Adventurer
Posts: 95
Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Alteor » 19 Jan 2018 19:09

Just to explain what mallor is saying.

We have Bob, and Alice.

They are exact same size and stats and gear.

Bob deals on average 100 hp of damage to Alice per turn.
Alice deals on average, 100 hp of damage per turn to Bob.

Bob special deals 500 hp of damage, triggers in one turn, and has 9 turns of cooldown.

Alice special deals 500 hp of damage, triggers in 5 turns, and has 5 turn of cooldown.

This means: total damage per turn of them both is 150 (100 base damage, 500 of damage every 10 turns). So theoretically they should always tie in a fight.

Now lets do a simulated fight between them.

fight start, both taken 0 of damage.
turn 1: Bob normal attack, and hits special. Alice not took 600hp of damage. Alice hits normal attack, and starts special, bob took 100hp of damage.
turn 2: Bob runs away.
turn 3: alice notices bob ran away (even if using triggers...) and chases.
turn 4: alice takes 100 hp damage, deals 100hp damage to bob. score: bob took 200hp damage, alice took 700hp. bob flees again.
turn 5: alice chases again, but missed her special since bob wasn't present.
turn 6: more 100 hp blows traded, bob took 300hp damage, alice 800hp damage. bob flees again.
turn 7: alice chases again.
turn 8: bob now 400hp damage, alice 900hp damage. bob flees again.
turn 9: alice chases again.
turn 10: cooldown done for both, bob now 500hp damage, alice 1000hp damage.
turn 11: bob hits special attack again, alice now taken 1600hp damage, while bob goes to 600hp damage.

and so on and on and son.

basically whoever has shorter prep time can hit special and keep running until enemy special fails.

or if enemy has autofollow trigger (that is against rules anyway): person with shorter prep hits special, wait the other one to ALMOST hit, and then dodge, wasting the other person special.

----

scenario 2: alice doesn't chase.

bob enters room, hits special. bob took 100hp damage, alice 600hp, alice tries to hit her special.
bob leaves, stay 9 turns away, enters room again, same thing. now bob took 200hp damage, alice took 1200hp.

----

or another way to think it... the cost of the special in damage taken.

Bob special need him immobile for 1 turn, while for 9 turns he can be hiding. He deals with his special 500hp of damage every 10 turns, and need to take 100hp of damage to deal it.

Alice special need her immobile for 5 turns, while for 5 turns she can beh iding. She deals with her special 500hp of damage every 10 turns, but need totake 500hp of damage to deal it.

Summing normal attacks they also deal during charge time the result is: bob takes 100hp of damage for every 600hp of damage he deals, thus his special has 6x efficiency. alice takes 500hp of damage to deal 1000hp of damage, thus her special has 2x efficiency.

Bob and Alice assuming both somehow reached their maixmum damage dealt vs taken efficiency, will still kill alice 3 times faster than she can kill bob.

Toferth
Wanderer
Posts: 58
Joined: 30 Jun 2017 11:27

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Toferth » 19 Jan 2018 20:05

Add attack of opportunity - if you run away from opponent, his specials have chance to fire immediately (if no special, then just extra damaged hit).

Alteor
Adventurer
Posts: 95
Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Alteor » 19 Jan 2018 20:14

Toferth wrote:Add attack of opportunity - if you run away from opponent, his specials have chance to fire immediately (if no special, then just extra damaged hit).
That would be rather interesting change.

Toferth
Wanderer
Posts: 58
Joined: 30 Jun 2017 11:27

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Toferth » 19 Jan 2018 20:45

In that case obviously revert "anti-bouncing" fix implemented now.

Greneth
Great Adventurer
Posts: 168
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Greneth » 20 Jan 2018 03:21

So the way I understand it is this, AoB did not like the bouncing tactic which was mainly used on NPCs. I don't know of anyone who used it in PvP successfully these days the reason being no one just stands in a room and waits, plus I dont know about the other magic guilds but when I move rooms my spells get canceled already. But with the new changes, it causes problems with PvP.

We could make it a bit more interesting, since this is a problem with PvP revert to what we had before the changes. However, make it so if you flee the room when battling an NPC and re-enter the NPC will "Punish" you for re-engaging in combat. Have them dish out damage to the whole team that is HP% based. Say something like 20% of your max HP, this makes it so fights are tougher and people can't just leave and bounce/heal up quick to re-engage, preventing those who shouldn't be fighting that NPC in the first place to either not do so or gather a team. And the "Punish" status will disappear once the NPC has fully healed.

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Ckrik
Wizard
Posts: 57
Joined: 05 Mar 2015 03:18

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Ckrik » 20 Jan 2018 10:16

mallor wrote:
Dodging knights charge was a very common tactic since... always, now it won't work. So it puts the balance into a point where knights can dodge my dfear and dbreath and I can't dodge their charge. I would say leave PvP mechanics as they were, if this is going to change I see no point to PvP at all.
Dodging your opponent's special is exactly what we want to discourage. Remember, if your Knight opponent leaves the room, your slash/impale is still active and you basically get a free hit with a very powerful special if you find the Knight fast enough. I think it won't be very profitable for the Knight to run away.

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Ckrik
Wizard
Posts: 57
Joined: 05 Mar 2015 03:18

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Ckrik » 20 Jan 2018 10:23

Toferth wrote:Add attack of opportunity - if you run away from opponent, his specials have chance to fire immediately (if no special, then just extra damaged hit).
The current implementation already rewards the player that stood his ground with what amounts to a free hit. The player that stood his ground just has to find the player that ran away before his special expires to take advantage of the freebie. If the running player is skillful enough to avoid being found before his enemy's special reset, then he's safe. I think that's pretty close to your idea.
Last edited by Ckrik on 20 Jan 2018 10:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Ckrik
Wizard
Posts: 57
Joined: 05 Mar 2015 03:18

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Ckrik » 20 Jan 2018 10:34

mallor wrote:
Carnak wrote: Do we really want a bunch of Jo-Jo's in genesis? bouncing in and out every other second. In my opinion, if you leave the room, you should be at a disadvantage. You're turning your back on someone to run away, be it strategically or not. If you want to utilize this to drag someone to a blockable room or something, you can always stop using your specials or run during cooldown (if you have the presence of mind to do so).
Bouncing in and out every second would be stupid, moving rooms happens in PvP, it happens a lot if you know what you're doing, have knowledge about specials of your enemy and know how to count seconds. The alternative is standing in the same room, exchanging hits, and the only tactics would be to hit your specials as soon as they are ready. BORING!
I would actually consider that tactic of your's a bit exploitative of unintended in-game mechanics and just like bouncing it's something we want to clean up. I'm sorry if it removes one tactic you've enjoyed deploying for years, but there are many other interesting fully sanctioned and perhaps even more adrenalin pumping in-game combat tactics you may want to explore.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Bounce mechanic change.

Post by Arman » 20 Jan 2018 12:00

Ckrik wrote:
mallor wrote:
Carnak wrote: Do we really want a bunch of Jo-Jo's in genesis? bouncing in and out every other second. In my opinion, if you leave the room, you should be at a disadvantage. You're turning your back on someone to run away, be it strategically or not. If you want to utilize this to drag someone to a blockable room or something, you can always stop using your specials or run during cooldown (if you have the presence of mind to do so).
Bouncing in and out every second would be stupid, moving rooms happens in PvP, it happens a lot if you know what you're doing, have knowledge about specials of your enemy and know how to count seconds. The alternative is standing in the same room, exchanging hits, and the only tactics would be to hit your specials as soon as they are ready. BORING!
I would actually consider that tactic of your's a bit exploitative of unintended in-game mechanics and just like bouncing it's something we want to clean up. I'm sorry if it removes one tactic you've enjoyed deploying for years, but there are many other interesting fully sanctioned and perhaps even more adrenalin pumping in-game combat tactics you may want to explore.
Worth also noting that not all the changes we are planning are focused purely on the pve side of the game... there are some things in the works that will expand the pvp meta and shake up the way players have traditionally pvp'd.

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