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Bounce mechanic change. 
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Adept

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 111
This seems like a very random change on something that really isn't hurting the game a whole lot. A lot of guilds already have this feature to prevent bouncing, however people still bounce by entering, executing a special then leaving and waiting for the CD. It takes them five years to do it, but its still possible. So to me overall this change does nothing but patch a few guilds that most likely slipped through the cracks. You cannot use bounce the way you do on NPCs in PvP, unless the other person is retarded in which they deserve death for standing in the same room watching you leave and enter hitting them with a special.

What it does do however is promote the use of hunting triggers once again since the chaser has everything to benefit now. Whether its illegal or not I can bet you its going to still happen. Prior to this change if someone used them the one fleeing could still do some damage or even dodge some damage (Dont forget this change absolutely screws any dodge abilities and will most likely ignore any constant magic abilities +1 for Magic users with shield spells) while trying to get away, now they just get screwed.

So what was the need for this change is my question? Is it the concern of players bouncing NPCs or was is some misconception about using it in PvP?

If the concern is bouncing NPCs then that is easily fixed, quit making easy Boss NPCs that allow you to flee, give them a Boss NPC flag that gives them the ability to block anyone trying to leave the room. Or install my previous suggestion of a punishment system when someone re-engages with an NPC which solves ALL ways of bouncing and leaves PvP the way it is, which is fine the way it is. If the concern is PvP I can tell you right now there are about 15 more important things to look at, the most glaring being why does no one want to PvP anymore, than this issue.


22 Jan 2018 10:27
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Wizard
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Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15
Posts: 380
For magic guilds its a big deal. Without better bounce mechanics they can't be properly balanced.

Anyway, the change is done for the better. None of the arguments outlined so far convince me otherwise.


22 Jan 2018 15:17
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Adventurer

Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45
Posts: 95
Currently there are almsot no way to block spells in PvP unless you are the aggressor and prepared yourself with resists gear.

Although I understand the intention was then make easier to balance magic, as I explained in a post earlier, this screws guilds that rely only on one or two specials with long charge time (unless as greneth said, they write auto-hunt scripts).

So will for example mercattack, blademaster attack, and so on given much faster charge times? right now their charging time is reaaaaaly slow, and thus they can't dodge magical attacks anymore, and that is the ONE thing that could be done when fighting mages...

Right now blademasters PvP became a matter of 'outmything' your opponent... since all you can do is sit still waiting your special to charge while the opponent mage blast you with tons of spells (blademaster special takes a really long time to charge).


22 Jan 2018 19:13
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Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
Arman wrote:
For magic guilds its a big deal. Without better bounce mechanics they can't be properly balanced.

Anyway, the change is done for the better. None of the arguments outlined so far convince me otherwise.


The PvE aspect is pretty obvious, however PvP is still very unclear to me.

As I understand the idea is that my specials abort when I move. Am I correct? Then what is the logic behind hunter being able to transfer his specials preparation? If I move while preparing specials, my enemy follows, we both move, according to what reasoning exactly his specials preparation persists through movement while mine don't?

Second, the terms "hunter" and "hunted" and not very well defined in current state of Genesis PvP. Let's say I attack an enemy and start preparing specials, his specials start preparing as well. He now moves 2 rooms to the west, while I follow 3 times west. The following happens:

1. He moves one west, his specials abort. He is now "hunted" and I'm "hunter".
2. He moves another west and stops.
3. I follow one west, my specials still prepare.
4. I follow second west, I attack him, my specials still prepare. At this point his trigger fire up his specials again, they start preparing.
5. I move a third west, at this very moment I become "hunted" my specials instantly abort and his specials start preparing and he becomes a "hunter".
6. If he decides at this point to move another west he might land his specials, while initially he wasn't supposed to, and I was supposed to.

I'm not entirely sure who would enjoy such kind of Schrodinger PvP, definitely not me.

I would urge you once again to reconsider for PvP and leave specials mechanics as is for PvP only.


22 Jan 2018 19:46
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Wanderer

Joined: 18 Jul 2017 19:31
Posts: 59
mallor wrote:
As I understand the idea is that my specials abort when I move. Am I correct?


try it--

<You have lost concentration while moving!>


22 Jan 2018 20:48
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Apprentice

Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58
Posts: 25
mallor wrote:
1. He moves one west, his specials abort. He is now "hunted" and I'm "hunter".
2. He moves another west and stops.
3. I follow one west, my specials still prepare.
4. I follow second west, I attack him, my specials still prepare. At this point his trigger fire up his specials again, they start preparing.
5. I move a third west, at this very moment I become "hunted" my specials instantly abort and his specials start preparing and he becomes a "hunter".
6. If he decides at this point to move another west he might land his specials, while initially he wasn't supposed to, and I was supposed to.


Its actually more like this:
1. You move west, become hunted, he follows, you cant execute but he can.
2. You move west, he stays, you move back, you cant execute but he can.
3. You move west, he follows, he moves west, you follow, both can execute.

As long as you move with an active special, that special gains either hunted or hunting. If the ability has hunting, it allows you to execute even if you're also hunted. This was added so that you dont get hampered by complex PvP situations. Keep in mind that this only works for this one instance of the special. When you activate a new one you start as neither the hunted or the hunter.

Sure it can "potentially" be utilized by quickly leaving and returning to the room in hopes that your enemy enemy jumps the gun and leaves, this way you can be hunted and still have a special. Id say, let calmer heads prevail.

Strategic retreat has quite limited uses in combat. (Military strategies ain't my cup of tea, so I might be lacking in this area.)

1. You leave to consolidate forces.
2. You move to a ground more easily defended. (Not sure what this would be in genesis :P)
3. You lead the enemy into an ambush.
4. You feign exhaustion (much like the mongols did to turn the tide)
5. You can run faster/for a longer time than others and can therefore thin the hunting herd by picking off the faster targets, the ones that reach you first. (not really applicable to genesis, fatigue maybe)..

These were all of which I could think while writing this post, there may be more. But in all these situations, unless you have distance advantage, the element of surprise (distraction, blinds, whatever) or alot higher movement speed, it will come at a heavy price to turn your back on your enemy. Its worth noting that room-size in genesis isnt a static 3by3 room or something like that. It might aswell be a vast plain, its not like you're taking 1 step back through a doorway to slam a door in someones face.

Id say, thematically its a good change. But what do I know, Im really just a code-monkey :D
Maybe we should add that you only get the special loss if the hunter can actually see you? Thats an idea, discuss it and see what comes up.


24 Jan 2018 03:34
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Apprentice

Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58
Posts: 25
Greneth wrote:
This seems like a very random change on something that really isn't hurting the game a whole lot. A lot of guilds already have this feature to prevent bouncing, however people still bounce by entering, executing a special then leaving and waiting for the CD. It takes them five years to do it, but its still possible. So to me overall this change does nothing but patch a few guilds that most likely slipped through the cracks.

1. Ive heard praise for the change, it seems a number people felt like it was hurting the game.
2. I cant think of a single guild that had it, but even if they did, isnt it good to implement a global patch?
3. Bouncing by waiting out the cooldown outside the room has always been legal bouncing, as far as I know. It also extends your cooldown by a whole lot so your target likely heals up the amount.

Greneth wrote:
You cannot use bounce the way you do on NPCs in PvP, unless the other person is retarded in which they deserve death for standing in the same room watching you leave and enter hitting them with a special.

1. I have already tested this on fairly skilled players and can ascertain that it is infact possible (Though its not the same as bouncing an NPC for sure).
2. Try hunting a player when you've been cursed so every movement takes seconds to perform, while they can bounce you uncontrollably.

Greneth wrote:
What it does do however is promote the use of hunting triggers once again since the chaser has everything to benefit now. Whether its illegal or not I can bet you its going to still happen. Prior to this change if someone used them the one fleeing could still do some damage or even dodge some damage while trying to get away, now they just get screwed.

1. Much like before the one who hunts better has the upper hand, if anything it promotes standing still.

Greneth wrote:
(Dont forget this change absolutely screws any dodge abilities and will most likely ignore any constant magic abilities +1 for Magic users with shield spells)

1. Have you tested it with these abilities, if so can you state any specifics? If not, please test it and return if you find any issues.

Greneth wrote:
If the concern is bouncing NPCs then that is easily fixed, quit making easy Boss NPCs that allow you to flee, give them a Boss NPC flag that gives them the ability to block anyone trying to leave the room.

1. Cudos for the most time consuming suggestion ever, instead of just suggesting that we limit the implementation to NPCs.

Greneth wrote:
Or install my previous suggestion of a punishment system when someone re-engages with an NPC which solves ALL ways of bouncing and leaves PvP the way it is, which is fine the way it is.

1. I agree, penalties to bouncing, like the loss of special is the way to go... :P There's a near infinite amount of ways to introduce penalties to bouncing, we went with loss of special. And we didnt want it to just affect NPCs.

Greneth wrote:
If the concern is PvP I can tell you right now there are about 15 more important things to look at, the most glaring being why does no one want to PvP anymore, than this issue.

Yes I agree! There are plenty of things to do, and we need to allocate our time in order to do it. As for PvP, there are two major issues(that I can think of right now).

1. If you actually do manage to kill someone, everyone involved, wizards and their mothers will get a mail, whining about the death. You have death recover, get a grip and just keep on keeping on.
2. Everyone just runs away/around, which is now somewhat "penalized" by the loss of your special. Cowardice should not be rewarded. Strategic retreat should be executed with skill and caution or one suffers the consequences.

The post boils down to not having the bounce implementation in PvP, to limit it to NPC-only. This is a doable change, codewise. If this is what people want, discuss it and find a reasonable argument as to why, to sway the stubborn wizards :P


24 Jan 2018 05:39
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Apprentice

Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58
Posts: 25
Alteor wrote:
Currently there are almsot no way to block spells in PvP unless you are the aggressor and prepared yourself with resists gear.

Although I understand the intention was then make easier to balance magic, as I explained in a post earlier, this screws guilds that rely only on one or two specials with long charge time (unless as greneth said, they write auto-hunt scripts).

So will for example mercattack, blademaster attack, and so on given much faster charge times? right now their charging time is reaaaaaly slow, and thus they can't dodge magical attacks anymore, and that is the ONE thing that could be done when fighting mages...

Right now blademasters PvP became a matter of 'outmything' your opponent... since all you can do is sit still waiting your special to charge while the opponent mage blast you with tons of spells (blademaster special takes a really long time to charge).


Im sorry, but this again.. Preparing yourself with resist gear is an obvious requirement for fighting mages. Would you not wear armours to fight a knight?

Aside from resist gear, there are plenty of ways to annoy a mage. And more to come. An example is stun, excellent for blocking abilities. Reflect their spells, that'd be hilarious right? Drain their mana, steal their herbs, I can think of even more off the top of my head. But Ill stop there, its something for me to know and you to find out.

As for the advantages and disadvantages of long vs slow special attacks, there are plenty. Ever tried pfighting with slow specials and you hit with both at the same time? Does massive damage and has in many cases single-handedly been the cause of death. Whereas shorter specials would effectively warn the enemy of how well his fight is really going.


24 Jan 2018 05:54
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Adventurer

Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45
Posts: 95
Quoting myself:

Unless you are the aggressor.


See, even mages go around heavily armoured (sans shield now). Becuase there is no penalty to them wearing the heaviest armour they can.

But I can't go as dex-based fighter for example, go around carrying one set of armour for each element. And I assume items that give you resistances to all elements if they exist, must be quite rare and require you to be around myth anyway to get them.

As for all other things you said can be done to mages... again, that is really end-game stuff, most physical guilds doesn't have any special habilities of that sort, and items that give such habilities often require you to be quite strong to get in first place.

PvP vs mage as GA or Veteran, just suck. And now without bounce, it just suck more.


24 Jan 2018 07:13
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Apprentice

Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58
Posts: 25
Alteor wrote:
Quoting myself:

Unless you are the aggressor.


See, even mages go around heavily armoured (sans shield now). Becuase there is no penalty to them wearing the heaviest armour they can.

But I can't go as dex-based fighter for example, go around carrying one set of armour for each element. And I assume items that give you resistances to all elements if they exist, must be quite rare and require you to be around myth anyway to get them.

As for all other things you said can be done to mages... again, that is really end-game stuff, most physical guilds doesn't have any special habilities of that sort, and items that give such habilities often require you to be quite strong to get in first place.

PvP vs mage as GA or Veteran, just suck. And now without bounce, it just suck more.


Yes, I imagine fighting a caster as a warrior at GA would be difficult, but atleast youll win out against thieves. That is sort of the order of things, Mage > Warrior > Thief > Mage.. or atleast the hopeful end result.

If you become a thief, youll soon enough be able to take out casters, but youll find difficulty with warriors, so the tradeoff may not be worth it for you? Or you bring a thief and youll have a blast against mages. :)


24 Jan 2018 07:29
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