Upcoming Changes.

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Redblade
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Redblade » 06 Mar 2021 19:25

Cherek wrote:
06 Mar 2021 19:21
Redblade wrote:
06 Mar 2021 19:04
You're not counting one thing in. When 3 champs gang on 1 myth, the myth still kills one or two of them and has time to run. I know this, because that's Ranger vs. Mage reality (please, let's not derail to this, I am just saying that there's at least a scrap of data for what I say, nothing else). Would you participate in that, if you're the champ? I wouldn't. So "in theory" will likely remain just that. :) Sad but true.
Are you sure about that? The three champs will clearly be more powerful compared to the solo myth after the change, as the more players in a team, the more you benefit from the increased white hits damage. Will it be enough for rangers vs mages specifically? I don't know, as we all know, Rangers requires a recode to be truly competive again in Genesis. But that's another discussion for another thread. So your your ranger vs mage scenario, each ranger hurts more than twice as much, while the solo mage who isn't using a lot of white hits in the first place will get a very small benefit, so I can't see how this change could _not_ benefit the smaller players ganging up on the caster in your scenario.
Wasn't really trying to give any specific scenario. I was talking about the pre-change situation as an example to why gang-ups rarely happen. Just saying that if the odds are that even one of the team members dies anyway, such gang-ups will still be rare :) If you wanna talk Rangers (or melee vs caster even), we can do that, but let's do it in a different thread :) Or just send me a DM/in game mail... :)
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TripleM
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by TripleM » 06 Mar 2021 19:34

Cherek wrote:
06 Mar 2021 18:44
TripleM wrote:
06 Mar 2021 17:58
Basicly you say: 'We cannot test it all, you do it for us. But if you die, we have warned you in advance - you have only to blame yourself if you visit Lars. Send him our regards!'

A bit cold, no? Anyways: Amberlee, spare me some popcorn, I'll share some of my beers?
Well, what is the alternative? As I said, I don't think sending death on vacation is a better idea, as that opens up for a lot of other issues instead. So, what do you suggest that is a better solution than a warning at login? We couldn't think of anything better. Can you? If you can, it might be a bit late to change anything now, but I am always happy to listen to good ideas for the future.
We get specifics this morning that the increase of white damage will be 2.x. Along with that you also just told us you cant really test it out because there are too many variables. And that there will be no restoration for those who unfortunately die due to this.

I respect the amount of time you guys put into the game I happen to like to play. I do think a bit of respect for the amount of time a recovery from death will cost at higher levels would be nice too. You decide there is no way people will be restored if they die. Then you ask me for a solution for this, that is better than a warning?! And that you will consider it for the next big change. I'll sit this one out, the magnitude of 2.x on white hits is astounding...
Last edited by TripleM on 06 Mar 2021 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

sylphan
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by sylphan » 06 Mar 2021 19:37

I would be amazed if certain guilds and races aren't crippled by this change (obligatory acknowledgement that we haven't seen it in action yet). Certain kinds of magic-users, thieves, and the non-bludgeoning races (as has been pointed out) seem to be directly in the crosshairs, for example. I assume this is obvious to the immortals. Hopefully they are planning some compensatory re-balancing. It's a shame that the correction of magic specials is seemingly going to lag so far behind this change.

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Ody
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Ody » 06 Mar 2021 19:55

I'm most curious how this will effect archers. It isn't as if they output a ton of white hits to begin with...
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Raelle
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Raelle » 06 Mar 2021 20:32

I have no idea what to make of these changes but I appreciate the communication from wizards on it. I will save my complaining til next week.

Saimon
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Saimon » 06 Mar 2021 22:33

TripleM wrote:
06 Mar 2021 19:34
We get specifics this morning that the increase of white damage will be 2.x. Along with that you also just told us you cant really test it out because there are too many variables. And that there will be no restoration for those who unfortunately die due to this.
(...)
TripleM do you remember about the 270% bug that was discovered by Carnak several months ago? It means specials were too powerful in comparison to white hits. Now, the 100% more powerful white hits balance it now. I believe Carnak has calculated it properly and now the fights will be more close to the one as it should be. OK, maybe after fix the spells dependence on stats. But as Carnak wrote, this is next step of this 3 stages rebalancing project (after puting dual wielded fights in proper place of hierarchy of fights).

Of course it will probably require some fine tuning after implementation but we as players will have to accept it and we will have to get used to the new reality, The same like it was after implementation of time of life of all eq. And I think we will be able to say if the change was for worse or better only after we will be able to test it.

Saimon
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Saimon » 06 Mar 2021 22:41

Raelle wrote:
06 Mar 2021 20:32
I have no idea what to make of these changes but I appreciate the communication from wizards on it. I will save my complaining til next week.
I fully agree with Raelle here. The changes in the communication of wizards to us, players are very significant and this change is in very positive direction. I think it started with Arman's note about his yearly plans for new development in Krynn/Ansalon domains and his explanation here on forum about balance issues raised by players. Next Cherek has become a Keeper and communication to players has reach another, better level, both here and on the Discord.
And now Carnak as new AoB follow the same way. Thank you all.

P.S.
I have almost forgot to mention Mirandus' explanation posts we have read in last few years. Another good example and from very sensitive area of relations players-wizards.

TripleM
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by TripleM » 06 Mar 2021 23:01

Saimon wrote:
06 Mar 2021 22:33
TripleM wrote:
06 Mar 2021 19:34
We get specifics this morning that the increase of white damage will be 2.x. Along with that you also just told us you cant really test it out because there are too many variables. And that there will be no restoration for those who unfortunately die due to this.
(...)
Of course it will probably require some fine tuning after implementation but we as players will have to accept it and we will have to get used to the new reality, The same like it was after implementation of time of life of all eq. And I think we will be able to say if the change was for worse or better only after we will be able to test it.
And I wish you good luck testing it out. I was making a case that the adjustment being very big, with possible uncertain outcome. I asked to consider restoring people that die due to these changes. That question was clearly answered by Cherek, there will be no such safety-net for players. Fair enough, but I think that is harsh. Especially after the honoust admission that they cauldnot test the change for all scenario's.

As far as whether or not I have to accept these changes in the long run, that is up to me thank you very much. I will not be first in line to find out if the risks of death, as I suspect in fact have greatly increased.

Targun
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Targun » 07 Mar 2021 01:10

I like the change. I think it was much needed, considering overall game design. We got to a point where it mattered very little what your weapon skill is. Similarly, two-handed combat, even with the recent update, was probably only just about getting on par with a good two-handed weapon. The above is despite the fact it's harder to get two good one-handed weapons and despite caid for two-handed skill.

Of course it's a matter of opinion, but I think it came to a situation where (with some exceptions) almost everyone is an excellent tank; in many cases practically able to solo the game. The main difference is some of these tanks bring much more dmg to the table than the others.

While 200%+ on white hits is likely to be significant, I think it's fair to say it's closer to bringing the things to "normal". If you think about it, it bumps the ratio between dmg from white hits and special to what we had before special dmg got boosted, which - I guess we can agree - is what is going to stay and become new baseline.

As for guilds, it's hard to guess who are going to be the biggest "winners and loosers", until some time goes into testing of configs, equipment and spells. If you're willing to team, my bet would be on Calians, followed in some distance by Knights. Being able to split or rotate tanks and benefit from multiple health pools seems to offer the best of both worlds (you deal more dmg and you should have enough HP to distribute to grind without sacrificing any offense).

Personally, I'm also curious if we see Ogres on the rise as havoc wrecking, colossal juggernauts of the battlefield. We might also see a resurgence of Shadow Union. Both guilds should be interesting alternatives for Calians... DO, Neidar and AA can also be more sought for, although at least the first of the two so far could benefit from punching somewhat above their weight, so to a certain degree it's unknown as well.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 07 Mar 2021 03:07

TripleM wrote:
06 Mar 2021 17:58
We get specifics this morning that the increase of white damage will be 2.x. Along with that you also just told us you cant really test it out because there are too many variables. And that there will be no restoration for those who unfortunately die due to this.

I respect the amount of time you guys put into the game I happen to like to play. I do think a bit of respect for the amount of time a recovery from death will cost at higher levels would be nice too. You decide there is no way people will be restored if they die. Then you ask me for a solution for this, that is better than a warning?! And that you will consider it for the next big change. I'll sit this one out, the magnitude of 2.x on white hits is astounding...
Uhm, that's not really what I said. I said we of course _have_ tested it, but we can't possibly test ALL guilds, races, NPCs, PVP and other variables there are. I am sure you also understand that? I am not asking you for a solution, but it sounded like you had a better idea on how to do this, and if so, it would be nice to know what it is. If you don't have one, that's fine. Like I said, I think this was the best alternative. And no, restorations or death on vacation is not a good idea. Like I said, we tried that in the past. It wasn't a good idea, as a risk free game comes with a lot of problems, and some players will find all sorts of ways to use this risk free period for their own benefit.

As for sitting it out, well, that's why we have the warning. You can sit it out if you want, that's your choice. I, however, think it's unlikely we will see tons of deaths due to this. If players just turn on their usual scripts and don't pay attention? Yes, then you might die. If you pay attention, tread carefully, and adjust your wimpy, I don't think we'll see many deaths.

Obviously we wizards also know how long it takes to recover from deaths, especially at high levels, and that's why we are trying to prevent deaths with the common board posts, and the login warning (which is very unusual). We don't _want_ people to die, but we do hope most of you are curious to try it out and help us with your honest feedback. Just throw all your previous knowledge in the trashcan and treat every area of the game as a completely new area, and you'll be fine. A whole new game to explore! Yay! Fun! :)

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