Upcoming Changes.

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Amberlee
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Amberlee » 08 Mar 2021 11:29

Nerull wrote:
08 Mar 2021 10:23
OgreToyBoy wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:14
Budwise wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:11
Wild guess. Cassius and Nils?

Also Amberlee and MMM... Beer? Grow up, kids. Drink wine. ;-)

Whiskey you mean?
Some Lime, salt and a bottle of good old fasioned Tequila is arguably a better supplement. :D
No, you are clearly wrong here.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Amberlee
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Amberlee » 08 Mar 2021 11:35

Hektor wrote:
08 Mar 2021 10:24
Hello all.

I respect Carnaks want for input, and I'd be glad to offer them.

However, as things are now, (and I respect the decisions of Carnak and Cherek on that) with no restorations and PVP leading to a sure death within 15 seconds I wont be testing this. It takes me well over a year (since I do alot of other things than grinding with my character) to recover what I can loose in a test in less than 15 seconds.

So with free pvp in this environment, I can and will only offer inputs (even more flawed and biased than my own) on second hand information.

So this will be anecdotes and observations and speculations. I don't really think anyone cares about my opinons and I cant base my arguments very well, so, if you read this and ignore it, or just flame it, I'd actually understand :)

Feelings on past experiences, and ramblings on casters/melee / ratio
As I recall we have tried some of these things already.
When the new combat and magic system was rolled out to increase white hits and melee specials massively along with the new magic system there were some equal results, If some remember better or have the actual details please correct me. The result was pretty much the same then, and alot of it rolled back. Especially ogres got a rollback on STR dmg on white hits. I remember my ogre seriously beating things to death in 2 seconds. Heh. Well. White hits got an upgrade from the old 90/10 reign of 95-2010 to a 50/50 that was then down to a I think Carnak said 70/30.

Many changes and stopgaps were introduced to the caster system, some of them I think were no white hits when casting, no dual casting and no specials when casting (so if you were a layman caster using specials your occ specials and occ caster spells wouldnt execute) reduction in casters tanking w shields breaking spells each single caster character only getting one type of dmg source (fire, spirit, death) etc. Also if spells scaled above champion mentals with the new change.. everyone complained that certain mages were able to double or single shot big players. That was also rolled back.

So maybe if we get the new mental scaling, this will tip things back, I dont know. It just seems overall that dmg increases like these have been done before with a rollback too.

When Carnaks suggests that the argument would be that magic is balanced on white hits doing 50% of the damage seems flawed as extremely many changes going in all sorts of directions have been implemented, removed, changed etc etc etc since (both on indvidual guild levels and on across the board).

So I do not agree from a balance perspective that this is the right ratio. It has been tried before and it did not work. I am all for making the game more equal for casters/melee if thats the concern. This is not a good fix on that.

Though what really worries me is a game where normalized damage can do more damage except the very best specials and spells in the game. That seems very wrong to me.



Overall feeling on specials vs normalized combat

What I have seen suggests that white hits (standardized weapon damage) yields more combat _success_ than most taxxed, combat aided and detailed abilities except for stunning. Go in with massive damage from two high statted weapons and youll do better than performing XYZ.

It is possible that is a norm for other games. There are games where passive doing nothing except push, click, and then overall white hits wins over specialized and executed combat utilty. I dont like those games. It doesnt make sense from a design perspective or a challenge perspective to me.

I dont feel thats how Genesis should be(and yes I said feel, because thats my feeling, and not a logic argument at all.) It devaluates wizards working on coding specials and combat abilites and it devaluates players trying to obtain them (either by hard work/grind, RP, doing tasks in guilds whatever) and working together to get the most of them.

What is the point in obtaining and learning the details of any special ability if sup master weapon +super weapon+str gives you the same for almost free? RP and flavor, certainly, but a fun MUD game environment? (Multi User Dungeon) - I dont think so. Genesis used to challenge you on how to get the most of your guilds utility. Now it just challenges you to get the highest weaponskill+biggest weapon+str/dex and type kill x.

What I also hear from many is that even most casual grinding except if you have stun OR massive weapon damage paired with huge CON/DEX is fruitless. Its simply too dangerous and the efforts by no means equal the rewards.

The positives I can see here is that it might motivate people who choose other roles than ultra tank with ultra damage to team. You try to fill out the gaps to be able to play this Multi User Dungeon. Great! as someone who likes to team and support - YAY. But - Motivation to team is great. Forcing? - do we really have the playerbase to do so? I don't think so. My anecdotal speculation (useless as it may be) is that people will rather move away from invested guilds to ultra tank with ultra damage or stop playing because supporting/teaming doesnt outweigh the easy of "pick big weapon, pick combatskill,pick evasion - go solo". From a null sum "what do I want to do with my free time" speculation - do I want MUD from spending hours on effort joining a guild, learning specials, understanding them, maybe even doing tasks etc. and then having to herb and team and so on and so forth vs "pick club pick damage" or play another game?

I will do the latter. This is not a threat or a way to force you to change things. Just telling you that Genesis right now is not a gaming experience I would spend my free time on. (I am sure many people would feel the game is better without me anyway - so maybe this is a good thing!! :) )

Thoughts on Visions
Cherek, I am thankful you guys choose to spend your free time creating and now also maintaining a legacy that has stood for almost what 30 years. I hope the same goes in return.

You say you have a vision for Genesis and this change in white hits somehow supports that vision. I have tried reading through some of your post notes and states of the donut and I couldn't find it. Not accusing you of anything, I am just asking for - what is the vision and how is this meant to support it?

When you introduce something so massive and you ask for our faith to just roll with it, even if it might mean alot of us might feel this is game over, then managing expectations could be a discourse to follow here. You are usually very good at communicating and I trust you. Would you mind giving us a heads up where you see things going for Genesis with these changes and what you think will be good/worse, and what I am really curious at (because thats a game changer for me) is Genesis now meant to be a game where "big club/high skill/grindeffort" > combat abilities in both pve/pvp? (because thats where we are right now as I see it).

Carnak and Cherek please understand I am very grateful for your time and your hard work. You asked for input/feedback. I am trying to give it. I cant play as things are and offer it, so this is the best I could do.

Suggestions:
Lower the ratio / passive combat should not outweigh invested combat
Make pkilling impossible while testing / right now theres no point
Tell us what youre planning and how this fits with that plan

Oh and for those who wonder if Hektor stopped playing right now. No I will ofc. follow up on my council and apprentices and make sure those are finished and then Ill see where things are.
I agree very much on this analysis and yes doing anything is pointless now, not only because of the PvP aspect but in case you actually lag for a few seconds and then just die because of it, ruining months and months of play.
Which will in fact be longer now since it will be damn near impossible to recover properly.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 15:51

Dan wrote:
08 Mar 2021 08:35
And it's happening, a team of 2, the biggest bully of genesis, and his buttboy runs amok ganking people left and right, in less than a stomp's worth, even ganking 2 players in 1 stomp, *golfclap* good to see they never grew up and became adult, taking their new nuclear weapon power to the max and powerganking whomever they feel like.

So defacto : every single non-peaceful room in genesis is now a 100% sure death trap due to these 2 - they decide who dies if you choose to play genesis. Hence, the choice for me - and a ton of others are easy - we can't play in this setting, you have to change something, you have to do it i fast or ban those 2 gankers until a fix is made.

I think back on the dragontrap in calia , same situation here, just worse as they can run all over genesis doing it.
As I understand three people died. One had no armours on, and would likely have died in the old system as well. The other two were, as I understand it, AFK... so they were also doomed either way...

If the above is true (please correct me if I am wrong), then the new system had nothing at all to do with two of the deaths. The first one is harder to know, but standing around without armours and getting blocked from moving... I don't think that person would have lasted in the old system either.

So... let's not jump to conclusions just yet.

That said, yes, all the available movement blocks in the game are more lethal now. We're of course monitoring things and as we've always said, there will be tweaks to a lot of things in the near future. Maybe to PVP abilities as well. We'll see.

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Silon
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Silon » 08 Mar 2021 15:56

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 15:51
Dan wrote:
08 Mar 2021 08:35
And it's happening, a team of 2, the biggest bully of genesis, and his buttboy runs amok ganking people left and right, in less than a stomp's worth, even ganking 2 players in 1 stomp, *golfclap* good to see they never grew up and became adult, taking their new nuclear weapon power to the max and powerganking whomever they feel like.

So defacto : every single non-peaceful room in genesis is now a 100% sure death trap due to these 2 - they decide who dies if you choose to play genesis. Hence, the choice for me - and a ton of others are easy - we can't play in this setting, you have to change something, you have to do it i fast or ban those 2 gankers until a fix is made.

I think back on the dragontrap in calia , same situation here, just worse as they can run all over genesis doing it.
As I understand three people died. One had no armours on, and would likely have died in the old system as well. The other two were, as I understand it, AFK... so they were also doomed either way...

If the above is true (please correct me if I am wrong), then the new system had nothing at all to do with two of the deaths. The first one is harder to know, but standing around without armours and getting blocked from moving... I don't think that person would have lasted in the old system either.

So... let's not jump to conclusions just yet.

That said, we're of course monitoring things and as we've always said, there will be tweaks to a lot of things in the near future. Maybe PVP abilities as well.

Those two were not AFK if I recall correctly but they were talking, I think it's safe to say that attack was far more unlikely to happen with the old system, they took advantage of the chaos and their new boost in damage, being some of the largest people in the game, they knew they could get quick kills then get out.
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

Dan
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Dan » 08 Mar 2021 16:12

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 15:51
As I understand three people died. One had no armours on, and would likely have died in the old system as well. The other two were, as I understand it, AFK... so they were also doomed either way...

If the above is true (please correct me if I am wrong), then the new system had nothing at all to do with two of the deaths. The first one is harder to know, but standing around without armours and getting blocked from moving... I don't think that person would have lasted in the old system either.

So... let's not jump to conclusions just yet.

That said, yes, all the available movement blocks in the game are more lethal now. We're of course monitoring things and as we've always said, there will be tweaks to a lot of things in the near future. Maybe to PVP abilities as well. We'll see.
With the huge pump (and its not double its more like 4x white damage with haste) you can gank any1 in a block or an icy brew thrown or a block,. The last block i endured took 37 seconds, and that would've killed me 5 times in this new system. Hence, you keep claiming that we should just sit back and test the system, while its so lethal that its unplayable, but I know we also disagree on how long time it takes to death recover, i can say i spend since october 7 and just recovered last week, hence your small tests have 0 impact for you as wizards, but huge impact for us as players - hence we can't even test the system without certain death's that weren't certain deaths in the old system.

A good game design makes sure that the chaotic people ganking people are left in check by some other guilds that can fight them back - right now the balance has been totally altered so that noone in their right mind would try to stand up against their redicolous damage output. When Avakuma was slain in mere seconds, Arman looked for flaws in the system, yet what you've done here, Avakuma wouldnt even get his first spell off before death would take him, so the fun factor in skirmishing back and forth have totally been pulled out of genesis, as you die so fast you might not even get to spell your name.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 16:33

Hektor: Thanks for your detailed post. Regarding my vision: I think you misunderstood my earlier post. I was speaking in general terms, that the vision of a wizard creating something is always going to be the deciding factor over player opinions. We can, and should, of course listen to feedback, but in the end the person/people doing the work has final say. I was not talking about MY specific vision for the game.

But since you asked...

...first we need to talk about wizard structure. I think there is sometimes an idea that I am like a movie director or something. That I have some grand plan, and then I tell (order) other wizards what to do. I am quite sure you know that is not the case, but maybe not all players know how it works. So, for those of you who think that's how it works: That's not how it works - at all :) It works the other way around. Wizards come up with ideas and get them approved by the appropriate liege or admin member. When it comes to the Arch positions, each Arch is responsible for their part. So, regarding overall game balance, that is Carnak's vision, so that is for him to share, if he wants to. Big decisions like this are obviously discussed in the admin, and if a presented idea completely goes against how I, as Keeper, envision the game, I would not approve of it, and would kindly try to talk whoever presented the bad idea out of it :)

Now, as Keeper I do have a bigger idea of how I would like Genesis to work. A lot of things are already working fine I think, but I presented my "grand vision" of things i would like to change in my first State of the Donut post (2019). So, you can check that out if you want to know specifics (it's at the bottom). The things in my vision that are directly related to this change are:

"Make the Genesis world and NPC's challenging again. Soloing huge bosses and large groups of powerful enemies is just silly, and doesn't exactly encourage teaming and socializing either."

And:

"Player versus player combat that is actually FUN for both sides and more guildwide conflicts that are FUN for everyone involved."

Now, this change ALONE does not accomplish either. But I think it's a start to a sound foundation to make those things happen in the future. A better balance between caster/melee, and better balance among our guilds, are good first steps. And that's something this change is trying to address, and it also has the potential of making the world a bit more challenging, which is also something I think we need - on higher levels. Now, as Carnak has always been open with, more tweaks will be needed to fine tune things. But getting the math behind our core combat systems right is needed in order to make any of my grand visions happens. So, when Carnak suggested his ideas, I thought his ideas aligned well with my ideas for the future.

Hope this explains my thinking regarding this change.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 16:47

Dan: Uhm, what makes you think I disagree with your about death recovery? I've always thought death is too harsh, and as a player recovery, always took forever for me since I don't like grinding. Except for the super-serious powergrinders who spend a lot of time on Genesis, it takes a long time to recover from a death at higher levels.

This has been up for debate many times, and I've always suggested less death penalty. Especially in PVP. I think another death penalty system is one of the key requirements for PVP to become fun. That's how I personally feel about that. But I know other players feel differently, and feel death has to "string" for PVP to have meaning. So... as with anything, we have as many opinions as we have players... :)

Now, regarding PVP, movement stuns, and the new white hits. Like I said, that is something we are actively looking into. I completely agree that a game where someone can just kill whoever they please, and the victims have no way to fight back, is not good. If that is how things will end up, we have more adjustments to make for sure.

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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Budwise » 08 Mar 2021 16:53

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Targun
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Targun » 08 Mar 2021 18:18

Hektor

I have a lot respect for you as a player and I'm sure there are many that would name your character as one of the first who helped them make their first steps on Genesis, so please don't take this note as some sort of personal attack. I think you push it a bit too far here though and resort to some sort of blackmailing arguments, which follow the lines of: "adhere to my demands or I won't play".

Of course you put it in very eloquent and polite way, but in essence that's your statement. The actual problem here is, you don't even bother to test the changes and make up your own mind, but instead outright say, "I refuse to test it, here are my demands, or I leave". You make some good points, but at the same time fair share or your arguments - in my opinion - does not hold when subjected to critical thinking.

Active play vs. Passive Play

This argument makes little sense when applied to Genesis. As a melee your interaction with the game during grind is - set up your triggers and change rooms. If your special has "something extra" such us; selecting hit location or choosing whether to blind or disarm - you add a button or a switch, or have it automated as well. As a caster - the only difference is - your triggers are a bit more complex, and you have couple more modes, but it can be automated to the same degree. You then have some binds assigned on top of it for more mana consuming "burst rotation" for soloing big mobs. When it comes to combat MUDs really aren't something overly complicated.

Therefore, as far as player involvement in combat is concerned nothing changes for worse in this regard. If anything - right now you actually need to pay some attention, look at the screen from time to time and check your health if you want to min-max your progress. If someone wants to use their old bots, they have to downgrade their XP ground a bit (and still will do at least comparable progress) or invest some time in making their bots a little bit smarter.

I Cannot Play

Of course, you can. You just have to be tad more careful. I honestly don't believe one of the biggest chars in the game, in a guild which isn't exactly a pushover will suddenly flop just because white hits do 200% of their dmg.

Melee vs Casters

I have an issue here in terms of general statement coming from your note. You've been a member of a guild that was one of the most powerful creations in the history of Genesis (at least before the recode). The only two other guilds that could give it run for its money were MM and Vampires (who doesn't long those joyous times when we could enjoy ships with stat-cloud+black breath, somewhat distantly followed by autohunt coded as a guild ability).

Recently, while doing trip down memory lane I found on this very forum an old log, where Nikiel absolutely obliterates Amberlee in 4-5 spells. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1537&p=12590&hilit ... mer#p12590 - for those interested.

Naturally, it's fairly old log, before Psuchea was recoded to Spirit Circle. My point here however is; most of population had to endure that level of imbalances literally for what ~15+ years? I am quite certain, they had much better reasons to come and say "I refuse to play the game, until things like those in the log, MM or Vampires are addressed" than you do right now.

Although, it's probably fair to say, many people stopped playing for these very reasons. Obviously, since then we've gone a long way and balance has improved massively. Communications, transparency, meritocracy, maturity you name it... simply, general approach by the people running the game is probably the best Genesis has ever enjoyed.

And by all means, I am not saying that if someone was OP in the past, they should be somehow punished. I don't have enough knowledge and data to make some definitive statements about the power comparison between melee and casters nowdays (even if I have some opinions and observations), but could it be that - right now - you're just somewhat on par with melee? Perhaps slightly disfavored in certain scenarios and probably still sought for and favoured in others with some upgrades to casters on the way?

On general note...

PvP
I think abilities blocking movement should be temporarily disabled, if possible. In my view PvP in Genesis requires a bit more thorough revamp, but it's a topic on its own. Unfortunately, in the past it often came down to solutions which resembled performing an eye surgery with a chainsaw and a sledgehammer, which might have netted suboptimal results. Bottom line is, I don't think it should be possible to just enter the room, stun whoever is in it and kill them before the stun ends. If this is the case, I think it should be addressed - or perhaps players should show some maturity and do not use these abilities for a moment.

This being said, if you join a guild like Knights, MM, Rangers, DA, etc. and then you're suprised or upset you died in PvP, then I really think you need to do some research, before you pick your guild.

Death penalty
I think with death recovery - it's really not big of a deal. You get 80% of lost XP back in absolutely no time. Just a quick look at the number of power-player myths that purposefully got themselves to expert just to quickly grind guild-stat in their new guilds should be an indicator enough and... they're back to myths in no time.

My Opinion so far
I like the fact that the game is more fast paced. I think there are some things that seem to fly under the radar or need to be adjusted. To name a few
- I saw some massive dmg coming from archer mobs, that normally wouldn't even scratch me.
- I think white hits should be normalized a bit more (reduced upper / lower bound on random ), so that general dmg stays the same, but we don't observe those massive hits that chunk so much health in one go.

Bias Disclaimer (of the 2 characters I tested the changes on): On my monk - I was so far able to get progress about 15% faster, with extensive healing. I think with some testing I can probably push that number further however. On my other character (offensively set up), I'm absolutely flying, doing progress at least twice as fast as before the changes. I am abusing some XP grounds and mechanics on that character though.

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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Kvator » 08 Mar 2021 18:19

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 16:47
But I know other players feel differently, and feel death has to "string" for PVP to have meaning. So... as with anything, we have as many opinions as we have players... :)
Yup, those who bully (or their idling fanbase) want death to have 'meaning'
Those who are on receiving end (without any chance for retaliation*) doesn't want to feel this meaning over and over again.

It's up to the wizards to consider which group can do more harm :)


* 'just group up and fight back' is one of my fav bs that's being repeated by wizards every now and then <3

I would actually love to see pvp system without death-penalty (eq loss is pretty harsh anyway) but with bigger chance to acttualy fight/kill folks (like added 'fireball-like' delay for movement when engaged in pvp, faster exhaust, some form of global rescue/move behind + counter to these - like 'break formation', all based on discipline so it's actually useful etc).

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