Upcoming Changes.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 08 Mar 2021 23:45

Amberlee: Well, the other note on the common board.

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vitwitch
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by vitwitch » 09 Mar 2021 01:59

I hestitate to post but...

Many posters have indicated that the increased relative effectiveness of white hits is a problem for CASTERS.

MELEE fighters smack them in between the caster's magicks.

Maybe the relative power of magicks should get a small compensatory increase?

Seems more realistic to me that X can hit Y with a sword many times while Y is trying to her fireball ready.
Will Y be hacked apart before X bursts into flame?

-- Competition between infrequent big effects (magicks) and frequent smaller effects (sword hits) ??
Anima plus est quam pugna

Nerull
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Nerull » 09 Mar 2021 09:10

vitwitch wrote:
09 Mar 2021 01:59
I hestitate to post but...

Many posters have indicated that the increased relative effectiveness of white hits is a problem for CASTERS.

MELEE fighters smack them in between the caster's magicks.

Maybe the relative power of magicks should get a small compensatory increase?

Seems more realistic to me that X can hit Y with a sword many times while Y is trying to her fireball ready.
Will Y be hacked apart before X bursts into flame?

-- Competition between infrequent big effects (magicks) and frequent smaller effects (sword hits) ??
Except this is not how it works atm.

But, this was melee being addressed - there is a casterfix or correction underway, which hopefully will address the problems we see today.

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nils
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by nils » 09 Mar 2021 14:13

Dan wrote:
08 Mar 2021 08:35
And it's happening, a team of 2, the biggest bully of genesis, and his buttboy runs amok ganking people left and right, in less than a stomp's worth, even ganking 2 players in 1 stomp, *golfclap* good to see they never grew up and became adult, taking their new nuclear weapon power to the max and powerganking whomever they feel like.

So defacto : every single non-peaceful room in genesis is now a 100% sure death trap due to these 2 - they decide who dies if you choose to play genesis. Hence, the choice for me - and a ton of others are easy - we can't play in this setting, you have to change something, you have to do it i fast or ban those 2 gankers until a fix is made.

I think back on the dragontrap in calia , same situation here, just worse as they can run all over genesis doing it.

Man, these tears are delicious. Got some more?

No, seriously. First of all, I do not accept your logic at all. I didn't spend time on growth so that I would restrict myself from PvP because my advantage would be too unfair. The advantage is the prize! Everyone can get "nuclear power", I even wrote the fucking guide on how to do it.

And before anyone starts to think that ogres somehow had an unfair advantage due to white hits - my quickness at the time of raiding was "dulled", significantly reducing my damage output. Carnak made sure of that change 20 minutes before armageddon.

Second, the "amok" was an event planned way in advance. We dubbed it "Bloody Sunday" shortly after the announcement. Nothing amok-y about it. Knowing damage from white hits would increase we assumed PvP would yet again be possible (as opposed to before, when everyone half asleep could run away) in Genesis. I guess we were more right than first imagined, more on that later.

Third, while the targets themselves weren't planned, there sure were established criteria which I won't comment on here. All targets fell under them, and no - we did not (deliberately) target anyone below champion. One of the targets were a lucky prize. My feelings about the elemental clerics are widely known, and "ganking" one of them, no matter the size, felt like stuffing my ding-dong in a bag full of puppy ears! #catharsisgalore

Fourth, while assuming that the insides of VK is a safe-zone is a good assumption, it's also false. It can be raided (and boy do the mobs rushing in shout about it), and if you happen to sleep through the ruckus - it's on you.

Fifth, raiding the keep was dangerous prior to the change, and one easy measure could have been taken to change the turn of events and make them twice as dangerous this time around. I'm pretty sure at least one of us would have fallen if so. Maybe all. It was a gamble, and I shouted "TO VALHALLA!" as we approached the gates.

So in a risk-reward perspective, I'm content.

The damage then. I've registered many a complaint, but have none myself. I assumed my favourite grinds would become harder to do sustained, and that life as a grinder would forever change on sunday. I was right. The game -is- more dangerous, both PvE and PvP and there aren't many who can sustainably solo GK anymore. I sure can't.

This is not bad news, people! The game, overall, now requires more teamwork, tank- and healer builds have purpose again and if someone's being an ass - they are in greater risk of reaping the reward for being so. Myself included!
All in all it will take some getting used to, but the overall speed in the grind just might make up the difference in experience gained from grinding lower tier grinds.

Lastly, I've come to the realization that there is a discrepancy in relation melee vs caster for the time being. Untill the matter is resolved, I will not pursue any caster and I urge anyone to not engage casters in PvP untill then.

Bloody Sunday <3
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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Redblade
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Redblade » 09 Mar 2021 18:02

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 21:51
Silon: Both me and the attacked party agreed that the outcome of the fight would have been the same before the change.
Correct. However the fight itself would never have happened before the change, correct? So arguably, the change is directly responsible for two deaths. My opinion.
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 09 Mar 2021 18:22

Redblade wrote:
09 Mar 2021 18:02
Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 21:51
Silon: Both me and the attacked party agreed that the outcome of the fight would have been the same before the change.
Correct. However the fight itself would never have happened before the change, correct? So arguably, the change is directly responsible for two deaths. My opinion.
Well, Nils did confirm they planned the attack based on the change, so, sure, those deaths were related to the change. I don't know if I would say the change is _directly_ responsible, though. Me and Carnak did not kill these people, Nils and friends did... and they are perfectly allowed to. I am not sure where you are going with this? We have been very clear with informing everyone that the world would become more dangerous this Sunday. We can't take responsibility for what players decide to do. Some decided to try to use it to their advantage (which is perfectly allowed), while others decided to sit it out, or stay inside their guilds (also perfectly fine). And, no, obviously we wizards had no idea NIls and friends were planning a "Bloody Sunday". But I am sure there are plenty of other players who have also found ways to use this change to their advantage in various ways.

Like we said we would, we're monitoring everything, listening to feedback, and work on adjusting. This was the point, as we need this kind of "real" data to be able to adjust things properly. Should we have disabled movement stuns before we rolled out the changes? Maybe. But we didn't think of that, and everything is easy in hindsigh. Now at least we know both NPCs and players tend to die a little too quickly in certain situations, and can adjust accordingly.

For the reocrd, more people have died in PVE the last couple of days than before, too. We knew that was likely, despite our efforts to warn people, and you probably knew that was likely too. I hope we have prevented somes deaths with our clear warnings, and Carnak's swift reaction to the PVP deaths, though.

Snedecor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Snedecor » 09 Mar 2021 19:00

Cherek,

It's pretty clear that a large portion of Genesis (including me) find these changes simply unpalatable. I can understand, if it was useful, an adjustment of I don't know, 1.2x. But 2._x? Even if you just think this is the grandest hill to die on, you're really going to just shirk off 30% (at least) of the small player base that you have into the abyss?

That's an absurd swing. Why even have stoneskin? Beforehand it could let me tank not the highest of highest, but, with more limited damage output, I could tank dark elves. No wands/elemental imbues/big spells and constant herb chunking/small rests/eggs/+10 defense knife/Shield with casting spell failure.

Me and Rage fought on the plains pre-change. We were both legends at the time. I was very close to myth. I was double skunking. He wasn't. I barely beat him off the plains with the help of some NPC war plain folks.

The next time we met, he ran me off the plains.

For the love that all that is Genesis, how is that not balanced?

Even if Rage -was- still a legend. If we met today on the plains, it would be like a cheese block in a grinder.

tor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by tor » 09 Mar 2021 19:08

Re: Snedecor

First of all, I sincerely hope caster occ players will give the wizards a chance to adjust stuff. If the game is badly broken for casters, which it may well be, it won't stay like that.

Second, to answer your last question: I am almost positive this change was thought up and implemented from a Player versus Environment context, and not from a PVP context. PVP's gonna need work. And the exp penalty for player death should be removed, and BALANCED snares/slows/stuns should be re-introduced.

Snedecor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Snedecor » 09 Mar 2021 19:24

tor wrote:
09 Mar 2021 19:08
Re: Snedecor

First of all, I sincerely hope caster occ players will give the wizards a chance to adjust stuff. If the game is badly broken for casters, which it may well be, it won't stay like that.

Second, to answer your last question: I am almost positive this change was thought up and implemented from a Player versus Environment context, and not from a PVP context. PVP's gonna need work. And the exp penalty for player death should be removed, and BALANCED snares/slows/stuns should be re-introduced.
People can come back. If it's an adjustment that results in a badly broken game experience, why in the world not take it step by step and do a 1.2x change first? Then take another step iteratively forward with another 1.2x change (etc)? Just who went silly in the head and went with 2._x? Is the Joker a part of the wizard team?? :P

Seems like it's not working out PvE with the devouring of hunting areas in a very short time span. At some point, players are going to be big enough that they deserve to solo huge bosses. That's the nature of the climb. If you've spent literal years in this game (which many have!) and some literal decade(s) with characters to be big enough to take on anything.

Re-balancing with the, idea (I am assuming) of making big bosses harder is unfair to the effort they have put in and just plain harsh to anyone who is trying to climb up that now steeper hill. If I'm hearing rightly the effect isn't that the environment is more challenging. Big melee fighters can still (it would seem, someone can correct me) wipe the floor off most any dragon and the cumulative effect is just a penalty for casters.

And if that's the goal here, this seems silly. Efforts to re-balance the magic system were already underway and I support the idea of -general- balance between the two. IF the idea is to make the environment more challenging and NOT re-balance melee/magic, then why not just make the NPCs more challenging?



One problem with super powerful white hits is that, as all know, players can 'dance' in and out of rooms to avoid magic casts. In the meantime, they can do a few white hits which far outmatch the caster. They already did outmatch the caster before than changes. Now it will be a popcorn reel. Roughly 40% of the time they won't avoid the cast (that might be generous) and the magic hit will ring true. That balance is just utterly upended.

Why not just not break the system and do iterative changes and adjustments if this is where we're moving? Why do we feel that big bad NPCs should never be solo opportunities for those who have spent years and years to get there (and, it would seem, post change still are if you're a melee fighter)?

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Redblade
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Redblade » 09 Mar 2021 21:27

Cherek wrote:
09 Mar 2021 18:22
Redblade wrote:
09 Mar 2021 18:02
Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 21:51
Silon: Both me and the attacked party agreed that the outcome of the fight would have been the same before the change.
Correct. However the fight itself would never have happened before the change, correct? So arguably, the change is directly responsible for two deaths. My opinion.
Well, Nils did confirm they planned the attack based on the change, so, sure, those deaths were related to the change. I don't know if I would say the change is _directly_ responsible, though. Me and Carnak did not kill these people, Nils and friends did... and they are perfectly allowed to. I am not sure where you are going with this? We have been very clear with informing everyone that the world would become more dangerous this Sunday. We can't take responsibility for what players decide to do. Some decided to try to use it to their advantage (which is perfectly allowed), while others decided to sit it out, or stay inside their guilds (also perfectly fine). And, no, obviously we wizards had no idea NIls and friends were planning a "Bloody Sunday". But I am sure there are plenty of other players who have also found ways to use this change to their advantage in various ways.

Like we said we would, we're monitoring everything, listening to feedback, and work on adjusting. This was the point, as we need this kind of "real" data to be able to adjust things properly. Should we have disabled movement stuns before we rolled out the changes? Maybe. But we didn't think of that, and everything is easy in hindsigh. Now at least we know both NPCs and players tend to die a little too quickly in certain situations, and can adjust accordingly.

For the reocrd, more people have died in PVE the last couple of days than before, too. We knew that was likely, despite our efforts to warn people, and you probably knew that was likely too. I hope we have prevented somes deaths with our clear warnings, and Carnak's swift reaction to the PVP deaths, though.
It's pretty unclear to me then, if you just needed real data, why you so vehemently disagreed to disable death in some form for the testphase. For both PvP and PvE. We expected this (or something alike) would happen. We tried to give a warning. It happened. We're upset our warning was not heard. :)

Please also consider that disabling stuns, you made some guilds PvP-wise stripped of their specials, making them even more vulnerable. Perhaps a tiny player will not die to (example given) Nils's (who clearly takes joy in making the game miserable for everyone but his team, if I read correctly) if they could stun fast. Not that a caster could stun fast enough. Okay, sure, disable stuns from those for whom it's not essential PvP defense. Is that unbalanced? My answer: Screw that! Balance is a term that I didn't believe existed pre-change and now I wish for the balance pre-change.

On another note: I am willing to believe you had no idea of any Bloody Sunday being planned. I however feel pretty unsure about whom all your "we wizards" might include. For a very, very long time, I trusted the Admin. Whenever Morgul Mages got another patch and I was left with "wait untill your recode", I waited (nothing so far :) ). But trust, I believe, is to be earned. And I'm losing faith. I do not accuse you nor anyone else. That would, logically require some proof. However I am losing faith.

That all being said: You and Carnak recieved all of my testing feedback. You got feedbacks of many others. Should be enough to see just how many players think this change needs to be changed back or adjusted rather rapidly to make the game fun again. That's all I wanted to say and all I will say on this topic until then. I really hope Genesis will once again become a place that brings me joy and not despair and sadness. :(
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

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