Upcoming Changes.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 10 Mar 2021 02:01

Redblade: I've explained why I did not want to disable death. I am sticking to that. You can disagree if you want, but I still think this was the right call. Of course I understood more players than usual might die. Hence the warning. Everyone had a fair chance to play an alt, or not play at all, if they were extremely worried about dying. I don't know why you (and some others) are so very upset about a handful of more deaths than usual, when I have yet to hear a complaint from anyone who did die...

And I really do not appreciate your insinuations. That's extremely unfair. It's like I would suddenly write a post saying "Hmmm, I have an feeling Redblade is a big cheater, but I have no proof... so, I am not accusing you or anything, but I am losing faith in you as a player". All we are trying to do is to improve the game and make it more fun for everyone. Sure, you can dislike the changes, or the way they were done, and maybe it will turn out you were right, and we wrong. Who knows. But regardless, do you really think what you said was fair? Do you think it will do anything good? I get you are frustrated, but that was a really low blow.

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Cherek
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 10 Mar 2021 02:04

Snedecor: It's been 2.5 days. Just... give it a little more time. As you perhaps have noticed already, a number of tweaks have been introduced today, and more are coming. If you want to help, feel free to provide feedback on how you think things are working now, after the tweaks.

Snedecor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Snedecor » 10 Mar 2021 03:04

I'm not playing until this is sorted out. Can anyone give a sane reason why this wasn't approached iteratively? Even now? it's not like it can't happen.

The only feedback I can give you concretely is that my bda encounters on the plains were toe to toe balanced (slightly in their favor if I had to guess due to my double skunking) on the plains before you amped up their damage by comparison.

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Silon
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Silon » 10 Mar 2021 04:30

Snedecor wrote:
10 Mar 2021 03:04
I'm not playing until this is sorted out. Can anyone give a sane reason why this wasn't approached iteratively? Even now? it's not like it can't happen.

The only feedback I can give you concretely is that my bda encounters on the plains were toe to toe balanced (slightly in their favor if I had to guess due to my double skunking) on the plains before you amped up their damage by comparison.
Things are working a lot better sned :)
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

Grim
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Grim » 10 Mar 2021 08:22

I have to preface this by saying I am not very large. I am only a Titan. So maybe that is the problem I am running into. I am also someone that went silent for a very long time and have only recently returned to the realms. Maybe a few months ago now. As someone that was built for spell-casting, this has been a bit disheartening.

Hektor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Hektor » 10 Mar 2021 11:24

Cherek.
You are right I misunderstood you. You have made your visions as a whole clear, but you did not refer to those in this, and so I was confused. I thought you meant your sole vision - it was Admins.

As for leadership, sure, I know this and I think it was good to clear it for everyone.

Thank you for clearing it all up!

My premise for saying I did not understand and agree with the change was (and remains) I cannot see a game that favors white hits over specials as wortwhile.

I absolutely agree with Nils' assesment that making the game more dangerous is a good thing as for roles and specialising in other things than pure tank/dmg. Before the patch of yesterday specials had zero meaning. That seems to be more corrected now. Good!

I also can see that this more adapted version can fit with your own visions Cherek as you present it. I can also see other positives like this reducing botting due to risk etc.

My issue with this whole thing was (since that was unclear).

1. I don't feel like playing a game where specials/guild abilities< white hits. Not one bit. - the recent patch of yesterday _seems_ to make things better. Thanks!

2. I feel Admin should have listened when admin was told that PVP and griefing would be a problem for this test
environment. Asking us for feedback (I dont have a range of myth chars to use) but at the same time making a test environment where I could loose everything in 5 seconds was not feasible.
It was my main reason for not logging on with Hektor and wanting to test it. You have tried remedy this later.
Admin Thanks for listening!

Carnak - wow did you turn the tables on Genesis! Naturally such major changes and Genesis being turned upside down
will cause a stir. I believe you have the best intentions for Genesis as a whole at heart in this. We've had more than one good conversation about balance over the years:) Thanks for fixing the bug in our guild so quickly yesterday.

Overall.
I am looking forward to the end result when the tweaks and patchings are over. And as I said before, if I like the end results - Im not going anywhere.

Targun.
If you deliberately misunderstood me, or decided to say "this is not a personal attack BUT *lock n load*" or I worded my note poorly, I'll leave for others to decide. I think you misunderstood me though :)

I would like to respond to a few of your comments though:
"I think you push it a bit too far here though and resort to some sort of blackmailing arguments, which follow the lines of: "adhere to my demands or I won't play".

Thats fair. I see where you are coming from and how that can be read. It does not change how I feel on my free time investments Targun.

Provide me with a test environment thats suicidal and will cost me a year of work to recover from and asking me for feedback will provoke such a response. You think it doesn't cost me that? It almost did the last time and I had more time and interest to recover. I don't mind dying in PVP or PVE (will I be grumpy as heck.. yes.. but thats the game) but I won't do it in some crazy test environment where everything was clearly askew.

Had Admin chosen to not change PVP based on peoples complaints(I don't think my note was in any way a gamebreaker for them there :)) that would have been perfectly acceptable and within their right as Admin. I just would not log on Hektor to test it.

It seems you're assuming here I did not test it with other characters or can make deductions based on other peoples logs and detailed stories of how their playing experience was. Still I felt I made it clear that my note was about feelings, not about first hand observations.

Active play vs. Passive Play
I think you missed my point. My point was about what I _feel_ should matter in Genesis. Should specials (spells or combat) as insinuated be "special" and be a major factor in a combat success or should white hits.

Yes many specials don't require much more active play than passive play. White hits being more dangerous (which I think is a good thing) means more active play. That was just not the point I was making.

I was talking about _combat succes_ and the game experience of specials vs white hits in Genesis.

I think specials should be the critical succes factor to combat succes.
Why?

1. Specials require more tactical thinking and use.
Yes specials can be automated and some require zero involvement or tactical use. Youre right. But thats hardly the case for all specials that I have across my board of chars.

2. Specials are harder to get, harder to maximize (guild work, xp work, etc) than white hits.
Some guilds require alot of work for their abilities to be obtained and hit peak, whereas "get sup guru x, get weapon with stat X and some armours" - as I see it, less so.

3. Specials tend to define guilds and differentiate them.
I don't know how it is for everyone else, but I have had conversations like "oh I'd love to have a Monk char and try plexus, or - wow that slash really packs a punch, should I make a BDA and try it out" And what makes Neidar tanks, as I understand it, is not their white hit damage but their tanking specials. Devaluate specials and you devaluate differentation.

4. Wizards invest alot of time on specials(both in coding and in balancing and in approving)
It is not something done over night and I think its devaluating that hard work. Why spend time coding great combat abilities if it all comes down to "me big weapon, me destroy you" That demotivates me.

5. Specials are taxxed higher I think in combat aid and guild tax than white hits.
The guilds' design are coded around what yield their specials offer. Why bother with unique design if it doesn't provide anything but an emote?

6. A game where white hits > specials for me is just Clickr Heroes2.
Its not a fun gaming experience for me. Period. Thats a feeling. You don't have to agree :)

"I Cannot Play". Sure I can. But I was not interested. I was not a great tank as an EC spirit cleric before this change. When this was introduced, spellcasters with better stats and better tanking spells than me, were tanking worse than _I_ did _before_ the change. "So log on and get stomped for that old chap! - uhmm no :)"
That you think the EC guild is not a pushover and that Hektor with his size is unkillable - Great. Please don't test that assumption :)

"Fairness"
"I think it was more unfair for XYZ in the past than it is for you now". Ok thats your opinion and you're entitled to it.
But..I don't feel unfairly treated with these balance changes? That was never my argument. I just said I wont play in a broken test environment. That has been fixed - (thanks for listening Admin).

Also I made it clear that I felt the ratio was off and that saying "white hits doing THIS damage (chaos ratio) = how magic
users are balanced NOW = therefore this is right" was not something I agreed with.
There has been MANY reductions and down balances in magic and some upscales that are not introduced, since the melee and magic system was recoded.
Since my post - some scaling down on ratio, some changes to resistances and more to come. Great. Psuchaed.. ehh psyched to see where it ends.

Story argument
You clearly have a different memory of SCoP and SCoP Clerics dying all the time to various other guilds than I do.
Fair enough. If you ever want to revisit memory lane or have me tell you about the 4 different time periods of SCoP balance and how different the power scales were in those 4 times ....the poor people who share guild with me will tell you "Hektor can talk SO MUCH". (While they doze and wait for the old man to finish his rants.)
I wont get into it here as I feel it would derail the topic entirely and thats not fair to the other more serious talks here so reach out to me if you feel its something thats interesting to talk about.

Casters vs Melee
I think it was made clear both by Nils, and by the recent change in evasion, on comments on the melee differences that Castersand Melees were not par with this change. Are they now?
I have no idea. I am going to play more with it.:)
I hope this clears things up a bit on what I meant in my note Targun.

Excited to see where this all goes all.

Cheers
Lawful evil - conform or die.

Drazson
Hero
Posts: 402
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Drazson » 10 Mar 2021 13:32

Impressive display of passive-aggressive negativity, winks for everyone and concluding in a fake smile. You never disappoint! Such an ode to the art of tactless strong-arming is most welcome, a fresh reminder for the old and the young.

Carnak
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Posts: 45
Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Carnak » 10 Mar 2021 13:56

Redblade wrote:
09 Mar 2021 21:27
Please also consider that disabling stuns, you made some guilds PvP-wise stripped of their specials, making them even more vulnerable. Perhaps a tiny player will not die to (example given) Nils's (who clearly takes joy in making the game miserable for everyone but his team, if I read correctly) if they could stun fast. Not that a caster could stun fast enough. Okay, sure, disable stuns from those for whom it's not essential PvP defense. Is that unbalanced? My answer: Screw that! Balance is a term that I didn't believe existed pre-change and now I wish for the balance pre-change.
Stuns are not affected by the change, only PvP abilities which affect movement, so ogrestomp, block, slow, etc. This was changed so that players are allowed to move unhindered during the change.
Redblade wrote:
09 Mar 2021 21:27
That all being said: You and Carnak recieved all of my testing feedback. You got feedbacks of many others. Should be enough to see just how many players think this change needs to be changed back or adjusted rather rapidly to make the game fun again. That's all I wanted to say and all I will say on this topic until then. I really hope Genesis will once again become a place that brings me joy and not despair and sadness. :(
Yours, and every other users feedback is highly appreciated. A change has been applied, and is currently being received well as far as I have heard. I hope to receive more player feedback, as it helps to move the game in the direction that we want.
Silon wrote:
10 Mar 2021 04:30
Things are working a lot better sned :)
I am glad the changes are well received! Keep up the good work out there!
Grim wrote:
10 Mar 2021 08:22
I have to preface this by saying I am not very large. I am only a Titan. So maybe that is the problem I am running into. I am also someone that went silent for a very long time and have only recently returned to the realms. Maybe a few months ago now. As someone that was built for spell-casting, this has been a bit disheartening.
Sad to hear that the change has affected you heavily, if you are a caster, then I can inform you that I am working to make it so that the caster system reaches its true potential as soon as possible. I do not have an ETA yet, but I will try to release patches as we go along. If you have yet to test the most recent changes, I would love to hear your opinion on those, and how they affect you as a caster.

Carnak
Apprentice
Posts: 45
Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Carnak » 10 Mar 2021 14:28

Hektor wrote:
10 Mar 2021 11:24
My premise for saying I did not understand and agree with the change was (and remains) I cannot see a game that favors white hits over specials as wortwhile.
We do not want to create a game where white hits are favoured either, this is in no way the goal. White hits maximum damage capacity should equal that of the maximum damage capacity of an occupational melee guild. Ontop of this, there are also layman guilds which will boost your damage further, leaving white hits at a potential disadvantage compared to specials.
Hektor wrote:
10 Mar 2021 11:24
I absolutely agree with Nils' assesment that making the game more dangerous is a good thing as for roles and specialising in other things than pure tank/dmg. Before the patch of yesterday specials had zero meaning. That seems to be more corrected now. Good!
We are working to balance out the effect of white hits. I believe it is worth noting that, while white hits were increased twofold, the actual increase on melee player damage was less than 1/3 of their maximum damage. It may require further testing and alterations to reach the desired effect, this recent one perhaps leaning towards an over-compensation, resulting in similar to the previous gamestyle, but time will tell.

Dan
Wanderer
Posts: 64
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Dan » 10 Mar 2021 15:05

I've not tested the recent changes but a comment regarding white hits vs special math as it was far off in the first try.

Lets say a special fire every 15 seconds, 2 dual wielded white hits every 4 seconds so it looks like this in a 30 second span:

ww ww ww sww ww ww ww s
so there 14 whitehits on 2 specials. my experience were that each white hit, did the same damage as a special totally watering out the specials as who the hell need specials if you do a ratio of 7:1 with your dualwielded whitehits.
In the above example if we say each hit takes 2 health levels the special took 4 levels and the whitehits took 28..

if whitehits should be approx 50% of the damage, then a whitehit should do about 1/7(dualwield) or 1/3.5(2hand) of a special, I know armours and stuff diminishes each and every hit, so the actual factor is probably 1/5 and 1/2 if one aims for 50% of dps to come from white hits.

It didn't feel like the damage was doubled, it felt more like tripled with a char with 350 strength,, so it felt like some cap was removed also on scaling damage with strength.

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