Upcoming Changes.

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Hektor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Hektor » 10 Mar 2021 15:11

Carnak wrote:
10 Mar 2021 14:28
We do not want to create a game where white hits are favoured either, this is in no way the goal. White hits maximum damage capacity should equal that of the maximum damage capacity of an occupational melee guild. Ontop of this, there are also layman guilds which will boost your damage further, leaving white hits at a potential disadvantage compared to specials.

Thanks for a quick response. I see what you mean. I just wonder if the white hits dmg potential really should be that high in that sense. Well. I dont have the data or the perspective you do. I can just only wonder if I was a "dpser" (of any kind) if that devaluates my feel of being a blademaster for instance. Lets see where it goes :)

We are working to balance out the effect of white hits. I believe it is worth noting that, while white hits were increased twofold, the actual increase on melee player damage was less than 1/3 of their maximum damage.
Ok. That seems odd with the other comments I hear from everyone on their kill speed being doubled, or their effectiveness being double as good (was it Nils that mentioned that here?), or people taking blows from melee that surpassed combat specials. Again, you have the data and logs, so I trust you on that one :)

Draz: Not sure if your comment was directed at me.? I can tell you though that my smiles in that post were genuine, my support of change and trying to move the game forward is the same, and I try to keep a positive mind about it. If your snipe wasnt directed at me, then please disregard this :)

*Editorial note, I tried making the quote working properly.. I gave up :D
**Editorial note from Shanoga: Fixed those quotes for ya.
Lawful evil - conform or die.

Kvator
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Kvator » 10 Mar 2021 15:15

Actually it looks pretty neat after most recent changes :)
although i think purely offensive options should be looked into atm (things like minotaurs, BMs etc) cause it seems that defensive specials are new king atm (i don't even bother to collect pebbles for sling with Kvator atm becuase even a slightest improvement to dodge is worth way more than weak offensive special :) )

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Silon
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Silon » 10 Mar 2021 16:01

Kvator wrote:
10 Mar 2021 15:15
Actually it looks pretty neat after most recent changes :)
although i think purely offensive options should be looked into atm (things like minotaurs, BMs etc) cause it seems that defensive specials are new king atm (i don't even bother to collect pebbles for sling with Kvator atm becuase even a slightest improvement to dodge is worth way more than weak offensive special :) )
I actually agree with this, I'm not sure if those specials still do as much damage...and they tend to miss a lot, with the new boost to evades, said specials will miss even more. I wouldn't want anyone who went into a layman specifically for damage, miss out on the majority of their damage.
Rolling along in the grease of shame....wait potatoes don't feel shame do they?

Targun
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Targun » 11 Mar 2021 03:45

Hektor wrote:
10 Mar 2021 11:24
Targun.
If you deliberately misunderstood me, or decided to say "this is not a personal attack BUT *lock n load*" or I worded my note poorly, I'll leave for others to decide. I think you misunderstood me though :)
I disagreed with certain points you made and certain methods you chose, while admitting some of your points are good. Naturally, I focused on those where I have a different opinion. Dissecting every aspect and analyzing every caveat would just make my already long note an essay. I don't think that qualifies it as *lock n load*.

As for misunderstanding or wording, I can't be the judge of that. If misunderstanding was on my part, it was not some deliberate "playing fool" scheme. Though it might very well be I am a genuine one.
Hektor wrote: Provide me with a test environment thats suicidal and will cost me a year of work to recover from and asking me for feedback will provoke such a response. You think it doesn't cost me that? It almost did the last time and I had more time and interest to recover. I don't mind dying in PVP or PVE (will I be grumpy as heck.. yes.. but thats the game) but I won't do it in some crazy test environment where everything was clearly askew.

Had Admin chosen to not change PVP based on peoples complaints(I don't think my note was in any way a gamebreaker for them there :)) that would have been perfectly acceptable and within their right as Admin. I just would not log on Hektor to test it.
I am not sure if a proper PTR/UAT is feasible, as it would probably serve abusing immortality. Also, I would not consider the game to be "suicidal" after the change. I agree however, that PvP limitations (stuns/snares) should've been applied from the start. I also mentioned it in my previous note. In my opinion, if anything, it highlighted underlying and somewhat concealed problem with movement impairing abilities.

Personally, I also expected a bit more self-policing or reserved approach from players, when Common Board post clearly said some time will be needed to gather data as well as asked for help and feedback... but well... that milk has been spilled and patch was already applied.
It seems you're assuming here I did not test it with other characters or can make deductions based on other peoples logs and detailed stories of how their playing experience was. Still I felt I made it clear that my note was about feelings, not about first hand observations.
I'll take the liberty of treating these as opinions. I think it is fair game to discuss them.
Active play vs. Passive Play
I think you missed my point. My point was about what I _feel_ should matter in Genesis. Should specials (spells or combat) as insinuated be "special" and be a major factor in a combat success or should white hits.

Yes many specials don't require much more active play than passive play. White hits being more dangerous (which I think is a good thing) means more active play. That was just not the point I was making.

I was talking about _combat succes_ and the game experience of specials vs white hits in Genesis.

I think specials should be the critical succes factor to combat succes.
1. Specials require more tactical thinking and use.
Yes specials can be automated and some require zero involvement or tactical use. Youre right. But thats hardly the case for all specials that I have across my board of chars.

2. Specials are harder to get, harder to maximize (guild work, xp work, etc) than white hits.
Some guilds require alot of work for their abilities to be obtained and hit peak, whereas "get sup guru x, get weapon with stat X and some armours" - as I see it, less so.

3. Specials tend to define guilds and differentiate them.
I don't know how it is for everyone else, but I have had conversations like "oh I'd love to have a Monk char and try plexus, or - wow that slash really packs a punch, should I make a BDA and try it out" And what makes Neidar tanks, as I understand it, is not their white hit damage but their tanking specials. Devaluate specials and you devaluate differentation.

4. Wizards invest alot of time on specials(both in coding and in balancing and in approving)
It is not something done over night and I think its devaluating that hard work. Why spend time coding great combat abilities if it all comes down to "me big weapon, me destroy you" That demotivates me.

5. Specials are taxxed higher I think in combat aid and guild tax than white hits.
The guilds' design are coded around what yield their specials offer. Why bother with unique design if it doesn't provide anything but an emote?

6. A game where white hits > specials for me is just Clickr Heroes2.
Its not a fun gaming experience for me. Period. Thats a feeling. You don't have to agree :)
You throw a lot into this bucket...

First, I don't think wizards work can be considered a factor here.
  1. It's their choice how they want to spend their time.
  2. We don't know if what you say is true. Perhaps getting the math down and writing core combat mechanics will surpass work put in all special abilities.
Either way, this debate would be futile. What someone does, what their motives are and what they consider worth their time, is up to that person.

Second, regarding what should matter. Abilities right now are standardized. If I understand correctly, you basically pick them from the library, adjust respective values and provide descriptions. What we get as a "combat feel" when we play certain guild is a combination of both - these abilities from the library and skills. When one does not matter or don't work, which was definitely the case before the change, it just makes the overall experience and number of available options more shallow.

Additionally, you make it sound as combat on Genesis - be it using magic or physical - is something complicated. I don't think it is. There are of course areas of lore and preparation, as well as some game mechanics that are unexplored, but... that's a whole other subject in its own right. In general, text is a medium where it is extremely difficult to introduce complexity directly in combat. This is because you can convey very little information that human can quickly process via text. At the same time it responds extremely well to being scripted and automated.
[...]SCoP/Circle
I brought this point (and others regarding MM or Vampires mind you) to illustrate that players were subjected to far greater extremes in the past and that I do not think it's alright to use arguments that go along the lines "change it or you see me not", because if this was the way all players adopted, today on Genesis we'd have those 3 guilds and 15 players hating each others guts, and that it's better to provide constructive criticism / feedback instead. And I'll leave it at that.
"I Cannot Play". Sure I can. But I was not interested. I was not a great tank as an EC spirit cleric before this change. When this was introduced, spellcasters with better stats and better tanking spells than me, were tanking worse than _I_ did _before_ the change. "So log on and get stomped for that old chap! - uhmm no :)"
That you think the EC guild is not a pushover and that Hektor with his size is unkillable - Great. Please don't test that assumption :)


"Fairness"
"I think it was more unfair for XYZ in the past than it is for you now". Ok thats your opinion and you're entitled to it.
But..I don't feel unfairly treated with these balance changes? That was never my argument. I just said I wont play in a broken test environment. That has been fixed - (thanks for listening Admin).

Casters vs Melee
I think it was made clear both by Nils, and by the recent change in evasion, on comments on the melee differences that Castersand Melees were not par with this change. Are they now?
I have no idea. I am going to play more with it.:)
I hope this clears things up a bit on what I meant in my note Targun.
As I said, I do not have enough information and knowledge to make definitive statements about power comparison. I also have neither means nor time to test it and draw conclusions. All I did was to encourage testing and providing feedback, as well as saying I agree with the philosophy behind the change. And I hope it can be made so, so that both the numbers behind the formulas and player experience is good; doesn't matter if someone plays a caster or a fighter.

What I can also say is that almost everyone got weaker in PvE situations. It was to be expected. Definitely some chars were big time winners in the lottery. Some of them were seriously underpowered and became valid choices, others just became more powerful in comparison with the rest of the guilds. However, Rome wasn't...

As for my main char is well... bloody awful right now. So even if it wanted, I don't think it can go after Hektor ;) . So far I found only one place which is slightly better progress than before (Thanar Cathedral) and it's only because it just suits monk+minstrel combination, but... I need to have eyes literally glued to the screen all the time when I go there. Everywhere else - solo - is vastly inferior (even progress wise).

So for me it's also definitely worse on my main, when I consider power. I hope there will be some adjustments coming to unarmed or monks. I'll be also testing if I can make some adjustments regarding my gear, etc. Regardless of that, I still agree with the premises behind the change. I think the game was too easy. It was very slow paced. I think it should pose a challenge. I think death should be more frequent part of experience. I don't think people should be able - even as myths - solo bosses or strongest XP grounds.

I slightly cut and glued couple sections of your post. No ill intentions, just made it easier to respond for me. I hope I did not change the meaning

Thoru
Really well written note. It's a shame LD/quitting was used. IMHO it's good sportsmanship that you evacuate yourself from PvP using the game not through LD/quit. One should give opposing chars a chance to kill them if you engage in PvP.

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Arc
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Arc » 12 Mar 2021 20:40

Alright, here's my update on how things feel as a caster after the newest updates. It's a lot better... but that's not saying much. At all.

I have two characters. An adventurer fighter, and an expert caster. I took my caster through orc fortress recently, and was surprised to find that even going through the basic enemies like thralls and scouts, I was losing a considerable amount of health. After only about three-quarters of a rotation around the outside, not even touching the interior or the towers, I was getting near my wimpy. But I just thought "wow, I guess casters really were op, if it was this hard for fighters."

So, I decided to check how things were again. With my adventurer fighter character. Yes, you heard me right, adventurer. So I came in, expecting to get destroyed, and found that I could kill much faster than my caster character, even though that character was so much older, so much stronger, and had much better gear. And on top of that, I even took less damage, since I was clearing things out so fast!

I have decent guilds on both my characters. Pirate/SoHM on the expert, Merc/Mino on the adventurer. So it's not a guilds problem. Instead, it's just that an expert caster and an adventurer fighter are on the same power level, perhaps the fighter is actually even stronger. This is not balance. This is just incorrect.
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett

Snedecor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Snedecor » 12 Mar 2021 22:45

Thanks Arc. My experience has been that things are much harder though semi survivable as my magic char. Much less powerful than before. I have no other char.

It does seem like it's taking more time to kill as well which is odd given that none of the changes should have affected that

Kvator
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Kvator » 12 Mar 2021 22:48

Snedecor wrote:
12 Mar 2021 22:45
Thanks Arc. My experience has been that things are much harder though semi survivable as my magic char. Much less powerful than before. I have no other char.

It does seem like it's taking more time to kill as well which is odd given that none of the changes should have affected that
I think con-hp relation was buffed as a first tweak. I guess magic changes (that should come soon) will prolly address it

tor
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by tor » 12 Mar 2021 23:02

Snedecor wrote:
12 Mar 2021 22:45
Thanks Arc. My experience has been that things are much harder though semi survivable as my magic char. Much less powerful than before. I have no other char.

It does seem like it's taking more time to kill as well which is odd given that none of the changes should have affected that
Doesn't help in your case that Shieldbearers has been greatly diminished relative to other layman guilds after the changes. I mailed Carnak and Arman about this and am waiting to hear back.

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Zhar
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Zhar » 13 Mar 2021 15:30

tor wrote:
12 Mar 2021 23:02
Snedecor wrote:
12 Mar 2021 22:45
Thanks Arc. My experience has been that things are much harder though semi survivable as my magic char. Much less powerful than before. I have no other char.

It does seem like it's taking more time to kill as well which is odd given that none of the changes should have affected that
Doesn't help in your case that Shieldbearers has been greatly diminished relative to other layman guilds after the changes. I mailed Carnak and Arman about this and am waiting to hear back.
I think the shieldbearers could be improved by making stun better (this would also help DO and casters a bit). With the addition of acrobat defence and defensive skills/specials being so good now in general it might be worth considering for stuns to lower your defence/parry/acrobat by a certain degree. Initially I thought this could cut them in half but I guess that'd be too much. Or maybe it should slow enemy down?

@Snedecor: I think hp pools have been improved for everyone (that should include NPCs too) so that's what could affect the speed at which you're killing.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by OgreToyBoy » 13 Mar 2021 23:07

Sure better stun might be a good bonus for DO since they got no added acrobat levels. Note on board says it was no point doing small patch since the guild recode was pretty done, just waiting for game updates.

Not sure what happened after that :D

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