Upcoming Changes.

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Mersereau
Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 01:05
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Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Mersereau » 08 Mar 2021 03:49

Cherek wrote:
08 Mar 2021 01:11
As for listening to players, sure, of course we do listen and care about what players feel.

*stares at item limits and unbalanced PVP*
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

Dan
Wanderer
Posts: 65
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Dan » 08 Mar 2021 08:35

And it's happening, a team of 2, the biggest bully of genesis, and his buttboy runs amok ganking people left and right, in less than a stomp's worth, even ganking 2 players in 1 stomp, *golfclap* good to see they never grew up and became adult, taking their new nuclear weapon power to the max and powerganking whomever they feel like.

So defacto : every single non-peaceful room in genesis is now a 100% sure death trap due to these 2 - they decide who dies if you choose to play genesis. Hence, the choice for me - and a ton of others are easy - we can't play in this setting, you have to change something, you have to do it i fast or ban those 2 gankers until a fix is made.

I think back on the dragontrap in calia , same situation here, just worse as they can run all over genesis doing it.

Budwise
Adventurer
Posts: 79
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 10:17

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Budwise » 08 Mar 2021 09:11

Wild guess. Cassius and Nils?

Also Amberlee and MMM... Beer? Grow up, kids. Drink wine. ;-)

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OgreToyBoy
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Posts: 620
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 11:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by OgreToyBoy » 08 Mar 2021 09:14

Budwise wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:11
Wild guess. Cassius and Nils?

Also Amberlee and MMM... Beer? Grow up, kids. Drink wine. ;-)

Whiskey you mean?

Budwise
Adventurer
Posts: 79
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 10:17

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Budwise » 08 Mar 2021 09:15

Wouldn't say no to a good scotch single malt.

Thalric
Expert
Posts: 267
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Thalric » 08 Mar 2021 09:16

I gain nothing from these changes.
No fun, no sense of balance, no want to play.

So I will do exactly that. Not play.
Enjoy, if that's possible.

TripleM
Beginner
Posts: 22
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 13:53

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by TripleM » 08 Mar 2021 09:52

Budwise wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:11
Wild guess. Cassius and Nils?
Gee, no one could have seen that one coming. What a coincidence that things turn out like this!

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 159
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Nerull » 08 Mar 2021 10:23

OgreToyBoy wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:14
Budwise wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:11
Wild guess. Cassius and Nils?

Also Amberlee and MMM... Beer? Grow up, kids. Drink wine. ;-)

Whiskey you mean?
Some Lime, salt and a bottle of good old fasioned Tequila is arguably a better supplement. :D

Hektor
Veteran
Posts: 207
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:25

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Hektor » 08 Mar 2021 10:24

Hello all.

I respect Carnaks want for input, and I'd be glad to offer them.

However, as things are now, (and I respect the decisions of Carnak and Cherek on that) with no restorations and PVP leading to a sure death within 15 seconds I wont be testing this. It takes me well over a year (since I do alot of other things than grinding with my character) to recover what I can loose in a test in less than 15 seconds.

So with free pvp in this environment, I can and will only offer inputs (even more flawed and biased than my own) on second hand information.

So this will be anecdotes and observations and speculations. I don't really think anyone cares about my opinons and I cant base my arguments very well, so, if you read this and ignore it, or just flame it, I'd actually understand :)

Feelings on past experiences, and ramblings on casters/melee / ratio
As I recall we have tried some of these things already.
When the new combat and magic system was rolled out to increase white hits and melee specials massively along with the new magic system there were some equal results, If some remember better or have the actual details please correct me. The result was pretty much the same then, and alot of it rolled back. Especially ogres got a rollback on STR dmg on white hits. I remember my ogre seriously beating things to death in 2 seconds. Heh. Well. White hits got an upgrade from the old 90/10 reign of 95-2010 to a 50/50 that was then down to a I think Carnak said 70/30.

Many changes and stopgaps were introduced to the caster system, some of them I think were no white hits when casting, no dual casting and no specials when casting (so if you were a layman caster using specials your occ specials and occ caster spells wouldnt execute) reduction in casters tanking w shields breaking spells each single caster character only getting one type of dmg source (fire, spirit, death) etc. Also if spells scaled above champion mentals with the new change.. everyone complained that certain mages were able to double or single shot big players. That was also rolled back.

So maybe if we get the new mental scaling, this will tip things back, I dont know. It just seems overall that dmg increases like these have been done before with a rollback too.

When Carnaks suggests that the argument would be that magic is balanced on white hits doing 50% of the damage seems flawed as extremely many changes going in all sorts of directions have been implemented, removed, changed etc etc etc since (both on indvidual guild levels and on across the board).

So I do not agree from a balance perspective that this is the right ratio. It has been tried before and it did not work. I am all for making the game more equal for casters/melee if thats the concern. This is not a good fix on that.

Though what really worries me is a game where normalized damage can do more damage except the very best specials and spells in the game. That seems very wrong to me.



Overall feeling on specials vs normalized combat

What I have seen suggests that white hits (standardized weapon damage) yields more combat _success_ than most taxxed, combat aided and detailed abilities except for stunning. Go in with massive damage from two high statted weapons and youll do better than performing XYZ.

It is possible that is a norm for other games. There are games where passive doing nothing except push, click, and then overall white hits wins over specialized and executed combat utilty. I dont like those games. It doesnt make sense from a design perspective or a challenge perspective to me.

I dont feel thats how Genesis should be(and yes I said feel, because thats my feeling, and not a logic argument at all.) It devaluates wizards working on coding specials and combat abilites and it devaluates players trying to obtain them (either by hard work/grind, RP, doing tasks in guilds whatever) and working together to get the most of them.

What is the point in obtaining and learning the details of any special ability if sup master weapon +super weapon+str gives you the same for almost free? RP and flavor, certainly, but a fun MUD game environment? (Multi User Dungeon) - I dont think so. Genesis used to challenge you on how to get the most of your guilds utility. Now it just challenges you to get the highest weaponskill+biggest weapon+str/dex and type kill x.

What I also hear from many is that even most casual grinding except if you have stun OR massive weapon damage paired with huge CON/DEX is fruitless. Its simply too dangerous and the efforts by no means equal the rewards.

The positives I can see here is that it might motivate people who choose other roles than ultra tank with ultra damage to team. You try to fill out the gaps to be able to play this Multi User Dungeon. Great! as someone who likes to team and support - YAY. But - Motivation to team is great. Forcing? - do we really have the playerbase to do so? I don't think so. My anecdotal speculation (useless as it may be) is that people will rather move away from invested guilds to ultra tank with ultra damage or stop playing because supporting/teaming doesnt outweigh the easy of "pick big weapon, pick combatskill,pick evasion - go solo". From a null sum "what do I want to do with my free time" speculation - do I want MUD from spending hours on effort joining a guild, learning specials, understanding them, maybe even doing tasks etc. and then having to herb and team and so on and so forth vs "pick club pick damage" or play another game?

I will do the latter. This is not a threat or a way to force you to change things. Just telling you that Genesis right now is not a gaming experience I would spend my free time on. (I am sure many people would feel the game is better without me anyway - so maybe this is a good thing!! :) )

Thoughts on Visions
Cherek, I am thankful you guys choose to spend your free time creating and now also maintaining a legacy that has stood for almost what 30 years. I hope the same goes in return.

You say you have a vision for Genesis and this change in white hits somehow supports that vision. I have tried reading through some of your post notes and states of the donut and I couldn't find it. Not accusing you of anything, I am just asking for - what is the vision and how is this meant to support it?

When you introduce something so massive and you ask for our faith to just roll with it, even if it might mean alot of us might feel this is game over, then managing expectations could be a discourse to follow here. You are usually very good at communicating and I trust you. Would you mind giving us a heads up where you see things going for Genesis with these changes and what you think will be good/worse, and what I am really curious at (because thats a game changer for me) is Genesis now meant to be a game where "big club/high skill/grindeffort" > combat abilities in both pve/pvp? (because thats where we are right now as I see it).

Carnak and Cherek please understand I am very grateful for your time and your hard work. You asked for input/feedback. I am trying to give it. I cant play as things are and offer it, so this is the best I could do.

Suggestions:
Lower the ratio / passive combat should not outweigh invested combat
Make pkilling impossible while testing / right now theres no point
Tell us what youre planning and how this fits with that plan

Oh and for those who wonder if Hektor stopped playing right now. No I will ofc. follow up on my council and apprentices and make sure those are finished and then Ill see where things are.
Lawful evil - conform or die.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1525
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Amberlee » 08 Mar 2021 11:29

OgreToyBoy wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:14
Budwise wrote:
08 Mar 2021 09:11
Wild guess. Cassius and Nils?

Also Amberlee and MMM... Beer? Grow up, kids. Drink wine. ;-)

Whiskey you mean?
Both!
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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