Upcoming Changes.

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Carnak
Apprentice
Posts: 45
Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58

Upcoming Changes.

Post by Carnak » 06 Mar 2021 03:35

Code: Select all

Greetings Folks,

I have seen some positive, and some negative comments
regarding the changes that are upon us, and wanted to
assure you that all your worries and thoughts are
being well received and considered.

My main objective when coding is to make sure that
all players, small and big, caster and melee, good
and evil alike, have a fair and enjoyable experience
in Genesis.

I wanted to pen a small note here, which highlights
the reason behind these changes. So that you as a
community have the opportunity to voice your concerns,
but also the knowledge on which you can soundly base
your arguments.

The main reason for the upcoming change is to bring
'white hits', upon which we base most of the
calculations we use for balance, up to an appropriate
value. When doing so, we will correct a few of the
issues present in the realms. One of these is the
perceivable difference between casters and melee.
Another being that these hits, compared to specials
are lacking in power.

When we upgrade the white hits, there may be some
unforseen circumstances, or there may be a need to
adjust variables to offset some of this increase in
damage. I ask you all to bear with me during this
time, and take note that I will appreciate all the
feedback that you will endeavor to provide.

The increase in damage will amount to slightly more
than double than what it is today, and will clearly
have a notable effect.

We may all need to expand our horizons during this
change, but I personally believe we are headed in the
right direction. Please try to bear in mind that this
is all in order to make this game a fair and even
playground for all involved.

The community as a whole has a say in the changes that
we endeavor to release. It is your voice that fans the
flames of our creation, and it is you who ultimately
guide us forward. With this, I ask that you contemplate
the world in which you play, and with an open mind,
envision the game and how these changes affect it.

When the changes to melee have been applied and are
stable, I will make sure to spend ample time to adjust
the spell system to match that of melee system. This
is also a large overhaul, in which Arman has already
placed a great deal of time. This includes adjusting
how spells scale with your stats, and how much mana it
takes to cast a spell. There are a number of other
variables which will both increase and decrease the
efficacy of spells. This is all to have a common ground
from which we can determine the strength of abilities.

Best regards,
Carnak

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1515
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Amberlee » 06 Mar 2021 13:09

Regarding the upcoming changes.
Wouldn't it be better to first review the guilds and how it would affect them and abilities et cetra before putting it live?
This will have a major impact on the donut and will most definitively have a huge impact on... everything.
What it will also do is perhaps highlight the huge racial differences even more.
More damage dealt = con being even better, something that will benefit dwarves and goblins even more because of the increased passive healing as well as ability to take more damage.
So would perhaps also be prudent to look at how it affects different races as well as guilds and adjust the racial imbalances as well before putting this live.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

TripleM
Beginner
Posts: 22
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 13:53

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by TripleM » 06 Mar 2021 16:30

I am with Amberlee here.. And I dont undestand why the 2.x magnitude on white damage to start with? That is a huge deal, why not first try how a smaller adjustment impacts the Donut?
This shifts a whole lot of things, not just casting vs melee also melee guilds among one another. Polearm-users probably are getting hosed here. PvP will become more lethal too. I will add that some people seem to have anticipated this change pretty well, and shifted to the right guilds beforehand. How convenient for them.

Something to consider: if this is truly a testphase and that things will be monitored and adjusted - what about restoring deaths that occur during an evaluationperiod of seeing if this all works and has the right effect?

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 06 Mar 2021 17:44

We will not restore any deaths. We've tried removing death from the game during a test before, and it had really negative effects on a lot of things, and almost all player agreed based on a vote here (don't think I've ever seen such a one-sided vote). For example it gives all players a "free card" to try all sorts of dangerous things, you can PVP without risk, steal from people without risk, etc. A complately risk-free game is simply not a fun game. We briefly discussed turning off death, but, for the reasons above, we decided not to. Yes, in theory would could keep death, but manually try to sort out who died due to the white hit change, but... most players who dies will likely claim it's beause of the change and not their own fault, and that would be a lot of manual work to try to sort out... so no...

The warning on login well in time was the best alternative I think. Now you can decide if you want to participate or not, and you do it at your own risk.

Regarding the kind of extensive testing you are suggesting... We have tested the change on the test server, but we can't possibly test all races, guilds, weapons, grinding areas, etc. That simply isn't realistic. It would require a lot of people and a lot of time. The only way to get enough data, and good data, is to try it out on the real game. But, obviously it has been researched and tested as well as it's reasonbly possible.

TripleM
Beginner
Posts: 22
Joined: 19 Sep 2018 13:53

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by TripleM » 06 Mar 2021 17:58

Basicly you say: 'We cannot test it all, you do it for us. But if you die, we have warned you in advance - you have only to blame yourself if you visit Lars. Send him our regards!'

A bit cold, no? Anyways: Amberlee, spare me some popcorn, I'll share some of my beers?

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Redblade
Adventurer
Posts: 89
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Redblade » 06 Mar 2021 18:29

Disclaimer: I play chars who will (at least I hope) be greatly positively affected by the change. I play chars who will (certainly) get near to zero positive effect from the change too.

While I am a fan of this change, 2.something times bigger white hits damage does sound like a bit too much to me. So basically getting blocked in a room means you die very fast? Getting stunned means you'll eat a lot of hits? Not being able to avoid getting damage or heal yourself means you'll have to stop every two rooms and drink what you can, eat a few herbs and maybe just... write a book for your guild Library meantime? :(

Cherek: Some of us do not get to choose if we participate in PvP or not. Sometimes it's just simply that, leave your guilds or stop playing. While my most PvP char is likely affected positively by this change, I still think it's not fair to everyone of those who will suddenly get decimated by their enemies on a simple throw of icy brew. Cause yes. If -everyone- can kill you before you unfreeze, that's gonna be how this game goes. That's my guess however. :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 06 Mar 2021 18:44

TripleM wrote:
06 Mar 2021 17:58
Basicly you say: 'We cannot test it all, you do it for us. But if you die, we have warned you in advance - you have only to blame yourself if you visit Lars. Send him our regards!'

A bit cold, no? Anyways: Amberlee, spare me some popcorn, I'll share some of my beers?
Well, what is the alternative? As I said, I don't think sending death on vacation is a better idea, as that opens up for a lot of other issues instead. So, what do you suggest that is a better solution than a warning at login? We couldn't think of anything better. Can you? If you can, it might be a bit late to change anything now, but I am always happy to listen to good ideas for the future.

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Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 06 Mar 2021 18:58

Redblade: Yes, it will likely become easier to kill people in PVP. Could it be so that big myths can bully smaller players more easily? Yes, it's possible that might happen. On the other hand, it will also make it easier for smaller players to "gang up" and take down bigger players. Strength in numbers will likely become more important than size after the change, which I think could help even PVP out a bit. In theory. How it actually plays out remains to be seen, and I am sure Carnak is keeping an eye on those stun items/abilities in case some of them needs a tweak after the change.

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Redblade
Adventurer
Posts: 89
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Redblade » 06 Mar 2021 19:04

Cherek wrote:
06 Mar 2021 18:58
Redblade: Yes, it will likely become easier to kill people in PVP. Could it be so that big myths can bully smaller players more easily? Yes, it's possible that might happen. On the other hand, it will also make it easier for smaller players to "gang up" and take down bigger players. Strength in numbers will likely become more important than size after the change, which I think could help even PVP out a bit. In theory. How it actually plays out remains to be seen, and I am sure Carnak is keeping an eye on those stun items/abilities in case some of them needs a tweak after the change.
You're not counting one thing in. When 3 champs gang on 1 myth, the myth still kills one or two of them and has time to run. I know this, because that's Ranger vs. Mage reality (please, let's not derail to this, I am just saying that there's at least a scrap of data for what I say, nothing else). Would you participate in that, if you're the champ? I wouldn't. So "in theory" will likely remain just that. :) Sad but true.

As for "what's the alternative", I honestly just think that 3M meant 2.something is too much (maybe he'll correct me). I expected at most 1.3×current :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3179
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Upcoming Changes.

Post by Cherek » 06 Mar 2021 19:21

Redblade wrote:
06 Mar 2021 19:04
You're not counting one thing in. When 3 champs gang on 1 myth, the myth still kills one or two of them and has time to run. I know this, because that's Ranger vs. Mage reality (please, let's not derail to this, I am just saying that there's at least a scrap of data for what I say, nothing else). Would you participate in that, if you're the champ? I wouldn't. So "in theory" will likely remain just that. :) Sad but true.
Are you sure about that? The three champs will clearly be more powerful compared to the solo myth after the change, as the more players in a team, the more you benefit from the increased white hits damage. Will it be enough for rangers vs mages specifically? I don't know, as we all know, rangers requires a recode to be truly competive again in Genesis. That's another discussion for another thread, though. But in your ranger vs mage scenario, each ranger's hit makes more than twice as much damage, while the solo mage who isn't using a lot of white hits in the first place will get a very small benefit. This change will most definitely benefit the smaller players ganging up on the caster in your scenario.

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