Autohunt/flee

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Mirandus
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Autohunt/flee

Post by Mirandus » 28 May 2021 17:37

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Greetings Denizens of the Donut,

Of late there have been those who have be moving through
the realms imbued with what can only be described as the
winds of the gods. So quick they move it's hard to even
see them as they rush past in a blur.

To be clear, in the normal course, there is nothing wrong
with such immense speed (other than perhaps crashing into
a wall which hurts like the dickens). What is possible,
however, is that it will prevent Death from his favourite
past-time: Killing Mortals by having other mortals kill
them.

Namely, player combat. In this context, as the rules state
movement should be done without the benefit of gnomish
automations. MOVEMENT should be done without the use of
triggers. Whether to escape, or hunt. If your movement is
in anyway benefited by automation during this type of
combat, that's a problem.

To be crystal clear, movement is automated when any
method allows a player to move through a large number
of rooms automatically (triggers, aliases, etc...)

You must physically type the direction you wish to
move. Typing "track" and having a trigger move you
in the appropriate direction is not acceptable.

So, if you encounter a foe, or they encouter you, the
entire goal of this rule is to prevent someone using
their immense speed to run across a continent, or,
conversely, to stick to the foe like some clinged
vampire of mythic lore.

On behalf of the Arch of Players Team,

Mirandus
Arch of Players

Thalric
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Thalric » 29 May 2021 00:15

How about if you only move a few rooms, on triggers?
Isn't that equally illegal?
If you move 3 or 1000 you still trigger yourself away from harm, since every time X arrives/attacks you, you move away.

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Shanoga
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Shanoga » 29 May 2021 02:44

Thalric wrote:
29 May 2021 00:15
How about if you only move a few rooms, on triggers?
Isn't that equally illegal?
If you move 3 or 1000 you still trigger yourself away from harm, since every time X arrives/attacks you, you move away.
Mirandus wrote:
28 May 2021 17:37

Code: Select all

Namely, player combat. In this context, as the rules state
movement should be done without the benefit of gnomish
automations. MOVEMENT should be done without the use of
triggers. Whether to escape, or hunt. If your movement is
in anyway benefited by automation during this type of
combat, that's a problem.
I'm not sure why you think this post doesn't already address your question. It clearly does.

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Mim
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Mim » 29 May 2021 09:00

Shanoga wrote:
29 May 2021 02:44
Thalric wrote:
29 May 2021 00:15
How about if you only move a few rooms, on triggers?
Isn't that equally illegal?
If you move 3 or 1000 you still trigger yourself away from harm, since every time X arrives/attacks you, you move away.
Mirandus wrote:
28 May 2021 17:37

Code: Select all

Namely, player combat. In this context, as the rules state
movement should be done without the benefit of gnomish
automations. MOVEMENT should be done without the use of
triggers. Whether to escape, or hunt. If your movement is
in anyway benefited by automation during this type of
combat, that's a problem.
I'm not sure why you think this post doesn't already address your question. It clearly does.
Hmmm. Speedwalking does not use triggers.
To my mind, speedwalking is when you click on a map and the client do all the movements.
Or when you type in a series of movements in your client and make it move according to this.
A trigger is never in use.

But the rules say:

While triggers make many things within the realms much easier, and using
speedwalking paths makes for quick travel, the use of these during player
versus player combat is prohibited.


So speedwalking, with the aid of a client, is clearly forbidden during PvP.

BUT this thread also mentions autohunt in the topic header.
And the rules about that state:

Using triggers to hunt another player
or using a speedwalking path to escape player versus player combat
will result in:


Cut away the part adressing speedwalking we have:

Using triggers to hunt another player ... will result in:

And the rules do NOT adress anything about movement.
The rules are VERY clear. They state that using triggers is forbidden. Period!

So stating that triggers are ok IF, but only if, you use manual movement together with the triggers you have, is not within the rules.
That is a fabrication.
Someone added something to the rule that is not there.

This is very similar to someone who gets butchered 5 times by the same huge player.
This is adressed in the rules:

"Player killing is allowed in Genesis as long as it does not become abusive......
or targeting a specific player for repeat killings without provocation."


When you complain, the administration comes up with:

Repeated killings is not allowed... unless the killer is a goblin.

This hidden part, beeing a goblin, of the rules is ofc not ok.
But it is the same as "Triggers is not allowed in hunting players... unless you move manually"

Both invisible 'adds' to the rules are imo a clear breach of what was intended when the rules were written.
The goblin part will not happen. This is pretty clear.
But why using triggers in an autohunt is allowed, is beyond imagination too.
Because we all know why the rule was written in the first place.
To allow players to run away.

If someone using triggers hunt as fast, either with a true autohunting device, or with a hybrid is a clear breach what was intended in the first place. The rules do not adress movement.
That is an after construction, for what reason we do not know.
But such after constructions are never good.

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Shanoga
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Shanoga » 29 May 2021 12:40

Mim wrote:
29 May 2021 09:00
Cut away the part adressing speedwalking we have:

Using triggers to hunt another player ... will result in:

And the rules do NOT adress anything about movement.
The rules are VERY clear. They state that using triggers is forbidden. Period!
I disagree with your point here, Mim. You quote a part of the rules that are specifically under the header of "Autohunt and Speedwalk during PvP" from <help rules> listed here in full:

Code: Select all

Autohunt and Speedwalking during PvP

  While triggers make many things within the realms much easier, and using
  speedwalking paths makes for quick travel, the use of these during player
  versus player combat is prohibited. Using triggers to hunt another player
  or using a speedwalking path to escape player versus player combat 
  will result in:
  
                     1st offense - Warning
                     2nd offense - Death without recovery
You reference this section and then want to "cut away the part addressing speedwalking." But that is the stated subsection of the rules, so I don't think it is fair or logical to say "the rules do NOT address anything about movement" when this section of the rules is specifically about movement. I'm probably misunderstanding your point because it seems contradictory. I am not trying to dismiss your claim/complaint here, but taking a rule out of its context to say it doesn't address the context in which it exists is at least confusing.

Mim wrote:
29 May 2021 09:00
"Player killing is allowed in Genesis as long as it does not become abusive......
or targeting a specific player for repeat killings without provocation."


When you complain, the administration comes up with:

Repeated killings is not allowed... unless the killer is a goblin.

This hidden part, beeing a goblin, of the rules is ofc not ok.
In my time on the AoP team, I am quite confident that I have not seen a single case of repeated unprovoked player-killing where the offender was not punished. The character's race does not influence our administration and application of the rules. "Without provocation" is a very important caveat and could be explained by a number of in-game actions. We review the logs, see who was the aggressor, look at when the attacks happened, consider guild politics/wars, monitor thievery, etc. We do not look at a character's race (or any other single factor) and whitelist them from all rule-breaking. If you have evidence that I'm wrong, please let me know...because in my 2-3 years on the AoP team this has not happened where a character's race gave them carte blanche to kill whomever they want.

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Mim
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Mim » 29 May 2021 13:34

Shanoga wrote:
29 May 2021 12:40

In my time on the AoP team, I am quite confident that I have not seen a single case of repeated unprovoked player-killing where the offender was not punished. The character's race does not influence
'
Ofc you have not.
It was an example, perhaps a bad one, to show how bad it is to 'adjust' a rule by adding something that is not there.
One could perhaps need a definition or interpretation of what "repeated unprovoked player-killing" means, for example how many times is 'repeated'? That might need a definition or interpretation.
But suddenly state that goblins are allowed to 'break' the rule is insane, and we do not want such happenings in Genesis. I agree with you there and I also belive we have not or will not see such a terrible thing happen.

But the hunting issue does not need a definition or interpretation.
Here is the full rule again:

While triggers make many things within the realms much easier, and using
speedwalking paths makes for quick travel, the use of these during player
versus player combat is prohibited. Using triggers to hunt another player
or using a speedwalking path to escape player versus player combat
will result in:


Let us cut out the important sentence.

Using triggers to hunt another player or using a speedwalking path to escape player versus player combat
will result in:


The little word 'or' that I highlighted have a meaning.
It separates the two parts of the sentence where hunting issue is the first part and speedwalking issue is the second part.
Theese are two separate parts separated with 'or'.
How much easier wouldnt it have been to write:

During PvP, movement must be made manualy.
No help from a client to move is allowed. Directions must be typed in manually by the player.


But no, the rules written as they are, are actually crystal clear here.
They state that during a hunt, triggers are not allowed.
Period.

The little word 'or' have a meaning. It states that now comes a second part of this sentence that is, or might be, treated differenly from the first part.
No definition or interpretation is needed.
Its not allowed to use triggers.
How can that be misunderstood?
How can someone state that it is allowed, when the rules state it is not.

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Mim
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Mim » 29 May 2021 13:58

In the other thread Dan showed how a trigger combined with sup guru tracking could 'load' F12 with the dirs of the track.
The player then presses (spams) F12 F12 F12 F12 F12 until he finds the escapee.
This could ofc also be a true 'auto tracking hunter', with the player jus watching the client do all the work. No manual typing at all.
No one can say anything for sure about that.
So this F12 is perhaps 'manually' if pressed by a finger. Or is it?

Is the escaping player, who has a client that 'loads' F12 with dirs to another place far far away, running manually?

PFight outside the gates of Minas Morgul.
The fight goes bad, so a player decides to run.
Tells the client to 'load' the dirs to Hobiton in F12 and press (spams):
F12 F12 F12 F12 F12...............F12 until he reach Hobiton.
Is this manual walk?
That might need an interpretation.
In my world this is using a client to escape, but others, which is apparent, might not think so.

Thalric
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Thalric » 29 May 2021 22:00

Shanoga wrote:
29 May 2021 02:44
Thalric wrote:
29 May 2021 00:15
How about if you only move a few rooms, on triggers?
Isn't that equally illegal?
If you move 3 or 1000 you still trigger yourself away from harm, since every time X arrives/attacks you, you move away.
Mirandus wrote:
28 May 2021 17:37

Code: Select all

Namely, player combat. In this context, as the rules state
movement should be done without the benefit of gnomish
automations. MOVEMENT should be done without the use of
triggers. Whether to escape, or hunt. If your movement is
in anyway benefited by automation during this type of
combat, that's a problem.
I'm not sure why you think this post doesn't already address your question. It clearly does.
So, I didn't read it properly...
You don't need to be an ass in your response.

Zar
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Zar » 30 May 2021 06:24

Sorry for stupid question:

If I initiate a pfight and other player leaves because of trigger this is an offense?

For example if I notice that specific player leaves the ship on "Disembark" phrase. I attack him on ship and say "Disembark", he disembarks and he broke the rule that will be punished by death on a second occurance?

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Mim
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Re: Autohunt/flee

Post by Mim » 30 May 2021 09:21

Zar wrote:
30 May 2021 06:24
Sorry for stupid question:

If I initiate a pfight and other player leaves because of trigger this is an offense?

For example if I notice that specific player leaves the ship on "Disembark" phrase. I attack him on ship and say "Disembark", he disembarks and he broke the rule that will be punished by death on a second occurance?
There has to be some smartness when looking at such a matter.
Im no authority, but if someone has a trigger for boarding or disembarking, and I assume many many do, this would not be a matter even if this occurs during a pfight.
If said trigger also initiate a run to Hobiton from Harlond

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Harlond_(Gondor)

I assume you would not get away with it, even if you try to tell the world you wanted to buy the fine whiskey or play Go in the Hobiton pub, instead if having a fight outside Minas Tirith.

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