Patch week!

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Zhar
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Patch week!

Post by Zhar » 11 Jun 2021 14:24

It really depends on the guild though. What should be taken into account as fighter baseline? Gobbo Gladiator/Pirate for a mix of offensive and defensive fighter capabilities? Should WoHS/MM be on par with that? Better than that? Worse?

I think we should really establish some reference point that's clear for everyone and check people's expectations against that.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Amorana
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Re: Patch week!

Post by Amorana » 11 Jun 2021 14:58

Arman wrote:
11 Jun 2021 02:27
Thalric wrote:
10 Jun 2021 19:22
The only "melee" stat that isn't as important to a caster as it is to a fighter, is strength.
A caster without dex and con is dead meat.

So... in a name of fairness, how are fighters penalized for not having any mental stats?

Do you see the completely insane setup that fighters need to rely on only 3 stats and casters 5?

If you have 100 avg that could be 150, 150, 150, 50, 50, 50... for a fighter, in the age old setup. (To make a point)
For a caster that would "equally" make 50, 110, 110, 110, 110, 110.

And I don't know about your ideas, but the difference from 110 to 150 is quite relevant.

So... how do you make casters non-reliant on physical skills, to level the playing field?
Almost all melee guild specials are based off physical and mental stats. Knights and glads specials are heavily invested in discipline for example. Melee players now have an incentive to invest in discipline, as that gives them a bit of mitigation against caster classes. So the argument that melee only need to rely on 3 stats doesn't stack up in practice... and if you look at the player rankings as an indication they don't. A large proportion of melee players rank highly in discipline rankings.
A key point you're leaving out in this assessment though, Arman, is that you and Carnak both have stated that the point of these changes is to make specials less important in this new way of combat, and that the new main source of damage is white hits. Therefore, a melee fighter is not dependent upon DIS. They may be high on that list, but that isn't because they have focused on it in most cases. It is the nature of the races they place and the odd racial balances of stats.

ETA: Yes, in the new system they have incentive to have some additional focus there to avoid spell evasion, but it's just that... incentive. For a caster (at the moment), it's requirement that you have still a decent amount of con and dex to withstand any amount of attack from a fighter.

I'll be interested to see where the system's going, but I'm concerned about these points still until I see the final result.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Amorana
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Re: Patch week!

Post by Amorana » 11 Jun 2021 15:14

Zhar wrote:
11 Jun 2021 14:24
It really depends on the guild though. What should be taken into account as fighter baseline? Gobbo Gladiator/Pirate for a mix of offensive and defensive fighter capabilities? Should WoHS/MM be on par with that? Better than that? Worse?

I think we should really establish some reference point that's clear for everyone and check people's expectations against that.
If you want my two cents, unfortunately, you're going to need to understand fighter as fighter, and fighter under the new magic system.

Yes, you need to know Melee Occ/Melee Lay guild pairing, because it's an important baseline to have.

But the more common pairing these days is Melee Occ/Caster Lay. You're going to need to know how that functions. Something/Warlock is probably a good baseline there (in terms of common pairing), but may not be bad to test with some of the other common magic lays too (EW, Minstrels, OOtS).
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Cherek
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Re: Patch week!

Post by Cherek » 12 Jun 2021 04:21

Amberlee/Amorana: I deleted your posts with silly bickering. Stick to the forum rules, or just get married already. You're sounding exactly like me and my wife.

Amberlee
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Re: Patch week!

Post by Amberlee » 12 Jun 2021 12:46

Cherek wrote:
12 Jun 2021 04:21
Amberlee/Amorana: I deleted your posts with silly bickering. Stick to the forums rules, or just get married already. You're sounding exactly like me and my wife.
That's fair.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Zhar
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Patch week!

Post by Zhar » 12 Jun 2021 21:59

Amorana wrote:
11 Jun 2021 15:14
Yes, you need to know Melee Occ/Melee Lay guild pairing, because it's an important baseline to have.

But the more common pairing these days is Melee Occ/Caster Lay. You're going to need to know how that functions. Something/Warlock is probably a good baseline there (in terms of common pairing), but may not be bad to test with some of the other common magic lays too (EW, Minstrels, OOtS).
It's not really about the common pairing but melee vs caster. Can't do that for hybrid builds as then you have magic already in there.

That's why I suggested pure melee setup with offensive and defensive capabilities.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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