The longest open letter

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serander
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Joined: 16 Oct 2021 17:46

The longest open letter

Post by serander » 21 Jun 2022 14:11

Code: Select all

Greetings Lilith, Saya and others.

TL;DR - Genesis is joyless, we ALL need to change,
Lilith and Saya too. Since it looks like things are
beyond repair with Lilith and Saya, I say my goodbyes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Now for the wall of text version (I kid you not, 500+ lines).
Some of them actually may feel relevant though, if you bother to
read through it. I apologize beforehand for the lack of structure
and rambling nature of it.

Hello.

I planned just to depart silently, for a longer break.
Recent events has prompted me to write this note, however, and 
coming back again seems unlikely at this time.

Truly, lately dwelling on this donut has been little more
than a constant pain in the posterior. While I don't mind a little 
pain when it is self-inflicted (such as eating a strong curry), 
repeatedly being bent over for a good thrashing starts to
feel a bit old, even if I have myself to blame for some of it.

Now, I know some of you think probably think I've been part 
of some massive campaign against Lilith and Saya, and their 
alts and acquaintances.

Recently Lilith posted an open letter to the community.
This is the reason that I, although I am hesitant, post 
this publicly as well. I think if you choose to take your issues
to the public, you will have to endure opinions on them in public 
as well.

I'm NOT trying to invalidate Liliths feelings in this. If
she feels harassed, that's a serious issue. But I don't think
the handling of this from Liliths side is entirely above board
either, and I don't feel it correctly represents what is going
on. I will present my view on things. I am not saying it is 
correct, because although I wish I were all-knowing, I am aware
I'm not. There are probably a lot of things I am missing, but
I can only try to relate things as I see them. 

I'm personally not aware by any abundance of complaints and 
reports against Lilith, Saya or anyone she knows. For myself, 
I've taken up the things I feel were just plain wrong. It is 
entirely possible there's more to this issue - What others have
or haven't reported I have no idea about, since this is not 
public knowledge. Contrary to belief and probably rumours spread 
by some, I don't "coordinate" reports to AoB or AoP with other people.

So - what have I reported?

In conversation with Cherek I've remarked against the behaviour of 
someone with a wizard, who Lilith might know, on what I consider
unsuitable behaviour for someone with a wizard. It was a rather minor 
thing for sure, but it shows a certain lack of ethics and morality, 
and a propensity for putting yourself first and the game second, 
which I personally feel is a rather undesirable trait in a wizard.
It makes me genuinely lose trust in this person. I am sorry if that
offends anoyone, but that's the way it is.

Secondly, Saya - who behaved extremely confrontational, derogatory
and accusing out of game and with communications in game. She also
insinuated having out of game info on what was reported and told me
she'd hold me responsible for everything. I found this rather disturbing
and reported this behaviour.

I also, concerning Liliths code, brought up the altar implementation,
where I loudly and publicly condemned the implementation. 

So - One complaint against Saya - because she was out of line and 
derogatory and abusive out of game, and one complaint against Liliths code
on an altar which was rather badly implemented, and one complaint
about the actions of a wizard she might know. Apparently this makes 
me a griefer and someone who harasses them, or possibly an "enabler"?

I don't think that's true.

Issue one - Saya. I complained because in case one Saya was being
extremely confrontational, accusing and derogatory out of game. 
Last time I played some 20 years earlier, the admin
didn't take things like threatening people with AoP reports and
trying to coerce behaviours from other players lightly. Insinuating 
having wiz info and access to everything reported I would
have thought would be at least frowned upon too, I'll admit.

Saya - I had no problems with Saya at first. 
By swiftly taking things out of game and threatening me with 
admin consequences (reporting) for anything reported against you
or Lilith, (not only anything reported by me but by apparently 
anyone I know), it became clear to me you are not interested
in listening, merely dictating terms. You also made it clear
you have no capacity to separate Serander - my character, from
me as a player. 

I actually wanted to help you set up meetings and listen to what 
you had to say at first. As it turns out, you apparently wanted nothing
more than to heap abuse on me and use me to get to others to make deals you 
then apparently had no intention to keep your side of.

While not technically illegal to be ehrm... confrontational out of game 
I suppose, it's not exactly conducive to the pleasant community that 
Lilith claims you both want.

Point two - the altar: I reported it because quite frankly, the first altar 
implementation was bad. It was a questionable feature (in my opinion) 
implemented hidden with an effect that wasn't clear to the target, and 
without cost to the user. This while spells of guilds who actually pay tax 
for such things exist, with requirements of having to be in the same room, and
resistance checks in place. It didn't look pretty to me - and Lilith was in my
opinion at the time dismissive of the issue in mail communications, mentioning
it as a small bug fix of little to no consequence and that she didn't think 
it was a big deal with knowing or not knowing someones name.

This - combined with other changes in Avenir coinciding with us having pushed
around Saya and SU in the mortal realm in the process of hunting Saya for
interferring in FK business - looked bad to me at the time.
This sadly made me go the wrong way about raising the issue.

I understand my perceptions may have been wrong regarding the whole issue,
which I conceeded in our talk. I should not have taken it public 
instead of speaking to her first. I also conceed that my view on things 
and reactions probably also had been coloured by outside rumours and the 
fact that I knew her and Saya were very close.

Neither of this means I think the core issue I raised about the altar
was wrong. My handling of the issue was, though, definitely wrong.

Nevertheless, here we are today. I can't change the past and I can't
do more than apologize. Sadly, even acknowledging the mistake with the altar 
and apologizing, apparently both count as nothing. The fact that I have not 
raised a single complaint against Liliths code, or herself, since then also 
doesn't seem to matter. 

I have no feelings of guilt whatsoever for the three issues mentioned 
above - The altar, wizard thing, and out of game threats and bad behaviour.
I think it's healthy to be able to question such things.
HOW I brought light to the issue in the altar case is another thing entirely.
That could definitely have been handled better by me.

Just because someone implements questionable things and I protest against it, 
doesn't mean I hate that person or are campaigning to get them to leave the game,
though. Maybe I just want them to do better? Is that within the realm
of possibility?

So. Three issues, where only one concerned Liliths code.
Were they unfounded? Conjured up just to spite someone? 
While I recognize the possibility that wizards get a lot of shit for 
absolutely no reason, it doesn't mean that each and every thing brought 
up is a fantasy and a conspiracy to bring someone down.

Being publicly pointed out as a indirectly as a griefer, harasser 
or enabler in a very public note felt like shit. I don't know what 
category she wishes to place me in, and I don't find it particularly relevant. 
In her note she is detailing very little about our interactions of course, 
and I can't give my entire explanation of the full situation
without risking deletion.

Hence my need of being a bit vague about some parts, and even omitting one
point of contention in this note. For that I am sorry. 

I really do feel the public posts by Lilith are a bit one-sided though.
First the original note with allegations of harassment and griefing.
Now also insinuations of cheating continue to be posted publicly with not 
so subtle hints aimed towards me and others I know. No particulars
of course, and nobody mentioned by name, but enough to make people feel 
outraged on Liliths behalf and most of them know exactly who she is referring
to. 

I do my best to scrutinize my own actions in this, but I also think 
a public response is called for since I think this is a slippery
slope with an outcome that is quite contrary to what Lilith claims to 
want.

A sincere question to you, Lilith and friends -
Do you think this finger-pointing accusatory behaviour while victimizing 
yourselves is conducive to creating the environment you claim to want to have?
Is this the kind of dialogue we will have to make things better?
Insinuations and generic outrage on public boards? How is this any better
than me going public about the altar change? 

I find it a bit confusing that you in your note urge people
to let AoP handle things, while at the same time you are publicly
insinuating cheating, griefing and harassment to groups of 
individuals. It seems to me that you _say_ that it should be handled 
one way, then instead choose to take your issues to the public 
yourself.

Do you think this fosters an environment of trust and respect?

While I'd personally love to be able to talk it out and get along, empirical 
evidence so far seems to indicate that more talks would only end in 
disappointment though. The longer time passes, and the more I see of 
your actions, the more it seems unlikely to end in anything but 
someone leaving the game, which I think is the point we are at now.

As people may or may not know, overtures of peace HAVE been made.
Nothing much of value came out of them though, it appears.
I'll relate to you the attempts I have made, and the results.

Firstly, I did speak to Lilith after the altar incident.
I felt the criticism I had received about this thing was correct.
I should have contacted her first, and I should have talked to her.
So I did contact her, and I did talk to her. 

Lilith did to her credit appear to both listen and try to understand 
my point of view, and seemed receptive to ideas on how to minimize 
the possibility of things being seen in a negative light through more
transparency. I on my part acknowledged that I had handled raising
the altar issue in a bad way.

I thought that talk went rather well at the time, but given her response
towards Dhez about it lately, and how Saya treated me about it after we
had our talk, it would seem I read that outcome entirely wrong.

Then I spoke to Saya who claimed to be interested in de-escalation.
This resulted in a rather offensive monologue with accusing comments 
from Saya, along with the threats mentioned above. This is also where 
the altar implementation came up and it was the first time for me hearing 
how we "demanded to sign off on anything Lilith is doing". 

After seeing the direction of the conversation, and trying to 
explain my view without being heard at all, I cut the meeting short.
I ceased speaking to both Saya in game, and the player out of game. While 
I am all for dialogue, listening to derogatory monologues mixed with threats
is not my favourite pastime.

About our "demands to sign off", I will say this. I alone was the one 
talking to Lilith, and if any demands would have been made it would have
been me making them. I think I would know if I had?

Also - when speaking to Lilith - I did this as a player. An individual
who wanted to repair a damaged relation - not Serander the Orc, 
representative of the Fire Knives. I can only speak for myself _as a player_ 
out of game. Why this concept is so hard to grasp for some eludes me.

Thus, any and all "demands" would have been mine as an individual. If you are
one of those who want to persist this rumour, please at least have the 
courtesy to choose the proper scapegoat for this issue - me. Don't blame
people I know because I know them, or because you yourself or Lilith or Saya 
have a history with them and dislike them. I'll stand for my own mistakes 
and take the blame for them, even if I don't personally think this portrayal 
of my suggestion of more transparency is a correct representation of what
I wished to achieve.

Because it IS true I suggested that more transparency might serve Lilith well.
I honestly believe that this would help kill any rumours of alleged leaking of
info to certain groups before others, as well as complaints of biased 
implementations. That this suggestion then is turned into some kind of demand
by me to make it seem I force Lilith to do things I feel is very indicative 
on the entire situation. Even when someone tries to suggest something to make
things better, it is twisted into somthing ugly and unseemly.

It was never a demand. Personally I think Lilith have been admirably up front 
with her changes since, and I don't know of anyone who doesn't think things 
have changed for the better in this respect. I am sorry if the idea
is resented because it was voiced by me, but I feel that it's working. 
In the end though, if Lilith didn't wish to be more transparent, I am hardly
in a position to make her.

So - the talks with Saya. I ended them, and I felt the situation was even
worse than before I talked to Lilith, and the whole thing made me think
I must have really misinterpreted my conversation with Lilith.

On this note, Lilith, perhaps you should advice friends not to threaten
others out of game on your behalf? Such situations truly does not 
do you any favours on how either of you are perceived. Truthfully, I find you
better at both at vocalizing your own concerns and discussing things than
Saya. Not to mention that I don't know WHY I would have to discuss your
code or my objections to them with Saya. I don't see why Saya has any 
business discussing the matter at all, or what right that player has in 
pouring insults over me over the matter.

As for the reported issues by me, the admin judged that nothing illegal
or deliberatly malicious has been done by either part. The admin 
decides, and I accept their decision.

This does not however mean that nothing _wrong_ was done. 
Of course there has. I'd say from more than one party involved in all 
of this. I've acknowledged my own bad judgement about the altar issue, 
for example, so that's one thing for certain. Just because it wasn't
illegal doesn't mean it wasn't badly handled.

But this is all old news, so what prompts me to write this now?

You all know of the note Lilith posted on the board, in which she brings
up the important issue of feeling harassed and speaking of a better culture.
I found the note largely on point. We DO need to change the culture.
I don't agree however, that it's such a black and white situation as 
someone being right and the other one wrong. As you can see from my statements
above, and what I will write below, I have another view of the situation.


A little while after Liliths note, Dhez placed a note where he tries to lead 
by example and acknowledges things he may have done better and apologizes to 
people he may have wronged. He also wrote a similar note to Saya and Lilith
where he strikes a similar tone, trying to relate his view on the past and
hoping to find some way forward. Now, I understand Dhez has a history, and
your milage may vary on how this note strikes you, but at least he is trying,
without being derogatory or mean to anyone, I think we can all agree on that
as a baseline?

This is met with a response by Lilith where, the very first sentence after 
"Hello Dhez" is confrontational, and where it is insinuated that he cheats,
is manipulative and orchestrating some campaign against her, projecting
untrustworthiness on her because he is untrustworthy himself, and even
culminating in suggesting that Dhez has a mental illness.

In this mail from Lilith, I see no indication that there's any wish to 
actually communicate and talk. She speaks of change of culture and 
communication in public, but from what I can see, in trying to sway 
peoples opinion against me and others out of game while continuing to
be accusatory and insulting privately, there's no willingness to actually 
make an effort.

Lilith also quite recently in discord seems to imply that the reason people
don't like the changes in Avenir is because they have stolen the code
and now don't have an up to date copy.

Could it not just be because they dislike having their characters affected 
by sudden memory loss without explanation all of a sudden? 

Or that when FK pushes Saya in-game all of a sudden more stealth proof 
rooms appear in Avenir? 

Or that their mapper stops working and they get somewhat annoyed?

It's evident that you have a strong connection to Saya, Lilith, 
and as we discussed in our talk, the timing and nature of the changes 
was perhaps a bit unfortunate. Isn't such explanations as above just a 
tad more plausible for dislike of those changes, than that someone 
somehow had illegally obtained a copy of Avenir and are upset that 
their copy does not match your original?

In short, you are once again publicly insinuating cheating and pointing
fingers, all the while speaking of a better culture being needed.
What is this better culture exactly? That you both, Saya and Lilith, can 
behave however you wish and never be called out on it when something 
seems off? That YOU are allowed to sidestep due process (taking your
issues to AoP) and instead try to skew perceptions publicly?

So - is this really a case of wizard persecution, or is it just 
a bunch of people behaving badly? I believe the latter. Everyone
must change - none are without blame here.

I have yet to see one single acknowledgement about Lilith or Sayas 
part in this situation, aside from the altar implementation perhaps
should have been handled differently. Even then Lilith downplays and
ridicules the reactions to it as "histrionics".

I have yet seen very very few communications from Sayas player to me where 
no blame is cast, no insinuation of cheating is made, and no derogatory 
comments are in it. Now it sadly seems Lilith is following suit in Sayas 
example on how to communicate.

Given the last letter from Lilith to Dhez, I find that her public 
expressions seem extremely disingenuous compared to what she 
expresses in private. First she posts a note about being griefed, 
and harassed, and the importance of changing the culture.
Then a day or two later she sends someone a letter full of accusations
and even insinuations of mental illness when they make an attempt.
Is this a good response when someone tries to open up and make 
things better? 

How can you expect trust and a better community when you yourself treat
players that way? I find it deplorable.

Yes I said it - deplorable. 

Given the recent public ventings, shouldn't it be possible to think someone 
having a wizard behaves badly, without being accused of harassement? 
Is it really OK to be derogatory, insulting, and insinuate that people have
mental illnesses, just because you have a wizard? On account on being an asset
to the game, I mean? Does that really justify it?

I personally don't believe that it does. 

Moving towards a situation where we can't voice our opinions out of fear
to be labled as harassers and griefers is not a better situation than 
what we have now. It might be more convenient if you are one of the 
untouchables, but is it healthy?

Can you _demand_ trust just because you've proven to write good working code?
No - not that either, in my opinion. Trust is the result of a relationship 
where mutual respect is the very basis and foundation that makes it work at
all. Being derogatory , threatening and accusatory undermines that foundation.

So - does that mean I hate Lilith and want her to leave? No.
I love Avenir. I love the work Lilith have done there. And yes, it IS 
possible to love someones work while still think they act wrongly in certain
other cases. For example: I also can enjoy Will Smith movies while still 
thinking it was wrong of him to slap Chris Rock. I don't have to condone
the slap to watch Men in Black with my kids. 

In other words - I am not trying to hate on Lilith. 
I am pointing to SOME of her actions, and behaviour, as well as those
of people she happens to know. Such things can be changed - If the person 
wants to change it. Take other actions, behave differently.

The same obviously goes for all of us obviously, myself included.

Don't equate what you do with who you are.
If you tie your identity and self-worth to your actions and cling
to it with a mentality "I am right, and this is who I am, and I am perfectly 
justified being derogatory and insulting and demeaning, because they criticize
my actions and therefore me" - I see little hope for change. 

In linking your identity to your actions, and viewing changing of them as a 
failure, change becomes so much harder. Such a person will most likely view 
their actions as the truth, and have a very hard time accepting criticism 
or changing their ways, because acknowledging bad decisions and
bad actions then becomes synonymous with acknowledging they are a bad person. 

Try admitting you are flawed too, and that there is work to be done.
It's liberating. It's also disarming. When you tell me "You were wrong
in going public with the altar issues", I'll say "Yes, you are right. 
I showed poor judgement there. I'll try to do better". NOW we have
a possibility to move on - to improve. It also absolutely makes the
issue a thing of the past. Or should, in theory. 

If you wish, you can instead continue to berate me for it. I'll just keep 
conceeding that you are right. Eventually we'll have to move past it, 
or we'll have to vehemently agree for perpetuity that I did wrong
there. 

Saya and Lilith - you seem opinionated about my and others behaviour. 
I would like to say that I went through the admin with my issues 
and never verbally abused any of you, acted derogatory towards you or 
threatened you in any way out of game when I communicated with you.
Try to do the courtesy of treating me and other people the same way.

If someone has acted wrong against you, it isn't an excuse to do it
as well.

If the standards of communications by players to other players
are to be set by how you act now, this community is in for dark times.
It seems to me you have no qualms about who you hurt or how you speak
to people. To me - that is unacceptable behaviour, even if someone else 
might have other levels of tolerance. I also quite frankly am at a loss
to see how it helps make anything better. 

Perhaps my opinion is too insignificant to care about, but then care
about the example you set in the community. Right now you contribute nothing
to the relationships you say you want in this community. On the contrary you
are harmful to it. When someone bares themselves and stretches out an 
olive branch, your reaction is to take it, and then soundly beat them 
with it. 

You both claim to have a better future in mind and wishes for 
a better culture, yet you both manifest every symptom of what is wrong
with it right now. Sadly so far I see next to none of the redeeming 
qualitites needed to bridge our differences in either of you. 

So - I (and others) have a choice to make. Stay and endure this, 
or leave. When communication has devolved into what I am witnessing
here, I am not prepared to invest the time and effort, or endure the 
abuse needed to get through it.

So the choice for me is simple - I choose to leave. 
I think several more with me will, or have already, come to this decision. 
Leaving starts to look like the only option possible, due to the resentment,
disappointment and in some cases anger that exists in ourselves and others
over issues concering disagreements over behaviour around a text-based game 
from the early 90's.

Read that paragraph again and think about how absurd this is. Nonetheless, 
it is the truth as I see it. Is this really reasonable? Is this were we are?
Grown men and women who fail so miserably at communicating that we can't 
co-exist in a text-based game? To me it appears that is exactly where we are.

I am all for second chances, and trying to resolve issues, but I 
personally have drawn the line here and now. I am not about to prove the
definition of insanity is correct on account of this game. Resolving these 
issues will never happen if only one side attempts to change.

While I conceed Lilith and Sayas players both contribute greatly
to the game and make it richer, I can't say I personally feel
this kind of pricetag associated with it is palatable.

For you others who judge me and others on these vague notes made by Lilith,
and equate this with Carnak or the persecution of Greneth RL... I understand
your concern and that history makes you wary, but my opinion is that 
you belittle both Carnak and Greneth with such a comparison. 

So yes - we need to treat each other better. I totally agree with Cherek
that it is the abuse between players that need to stop. I also bit my tongue
and refrained from public answers at first because I really didn't feel it would do 
any good. Perhaps this won't either, but I won't stand by silently while people
call each other mentally ill to their faces. By judging the letter sent to Dhez, and
resent insinuations of cheating in discord it seems to indicate that Lilith
is only for change when it is in others? It simply does not work that way.

Lastly:

"Be the change you wish to see in the world" is something I myself also largely 
have failed in regarding this situation - so for what it is worth:

- My sincere apologies for everything I may have done, and/or contributed
to, which may have made anyone else appreciate the game less. That was never 
my intention. It is really unfortunate that this infected issue spills over
and makes the experience worse for quite a few people.

- To everyone in SU, Emelie, and all in Sayas coven - believe it or not, but 
for me the issues were in-game, and I tried to the best extent that I could 
to keep them there. I'm sorry if any of you got the impression that there is 
any RL animosity for any of you, as players, from my part. There isn't.	

To all wizards, especially Cherek, thank you for listening to me. We may 
disagree on things, sometimes vehemently, but I never felt like you didn't
respect me as a person. I am truly sorry all this shit keeps falling in your 
lap. This too was also never my intention.

Saya and Lilith, I honestly don't have any animosity towards either of you.
But I'd like to see that you both recognize your own parts in this situation,
if you truly wish to accomplish change. I sincerely hope you will prove my
impressions of you wrong in this case. 

If anything good can come of this I at least hope everyone will bear in mind 
that how you behave yourselves and communicate with others out of game, have 
quite an impact on your own situation and how we relate to one another in
this community. Even if you think you are "right", this doesn't give you 
mandate to be insulting and disrespectful in your communications. 

Also - I'd like to re-iterate that your actions does not define you 
as a person. There's nothing wrong with admitting mistakes or failures.
Learn and grow. Respect each other enough to recognize that you are dealing
with actual people, who also love this game.

I think everyone needs to learn how to disagree with people without 
belittling them, being derogatory and accusatory and threatening out 
of game, unless we want this kind of vicious situation repeat itself
over and over.

This is not the first time. Sadly, I doubt it'll be the last.

Peace out:
	Seranders player


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