Crafting Project

[Zhar]

I understand your concerns, but you must also understand that changing the way feature like herbing would not just change quite a bit of fundamental things around the donut but also require a lot of coding time that could be spent on something else. Such a move must be weighted EXTREMELY carefully.

Another thing, about the short-session crafting system, you mentioned games like Plants vs Zombies (yes, I have indeed spent quite a lot of time watering my gardens there). System like that basically imposes a limit to how much you can do per session. To make it fair for everybody in Genesis there would have to be a hard limit put on all crafting. Example: After forging 10 items as a blacksmith you're unable to forge any more for the next 24 hours.
This would give everyone the same chances at crafting, but in my opinion, it would take away a lot of the depth and scare those who'd like to be real, professional crafters.

[Strider]

I am under no illusion that reimplementing herbing alone or as part of an integrated component gathering system is a trivial fix. However, a new crafting system would require something to produce components, and I do not know anyone who would argue in favor of the current system, let alone expanding it's importance.

I also do not know if crafting limits are a necessary component of a short-session crafting system, especially one that is more risk than time driven. I don't think we cannot deliver a reasonable rate of reward to those who want to keep their characters primarily in the craft guild setting. As for primarily short-session available players, I would argue that Genesis currently has nothing to offer them, such that almost anything is an improvement, although it is worth considering if they would simply be priced out by more frequent denizens.

Now, this does all beg the question if it is worthwhile catering to these hypothetical players, and if crafting is the place to do it. In so far as we've all gone through periods when we had little time for Genesis, maintaining that connection and habit of playing, or building it for players we'd otherwise miss, I think this may be one of the better ways to start addressing our population issues.

[Zhar]

No offense, but I'd rather have a couple people that stay for longer periods of time than many people who log in to stay for no longer than an hour. Genesis (and I guess any other MMO out there) doesn't really cater to such people (bar the subscription fees but that's out the window for us), and I don't see anything wrong with that. After all, if you want to play some RPG in a text environment but don't really have time that most MMOs require then why not just play some rougelike? Sure, you'll miss the multiplayer experience, but if you don't have much time to spend in the game, are you sure you're going to spend it socializing? And how much of that socializing are you going to accomplish?

The thing with expanding Genesis playerbase is not finding just more people, it's about finding just the right people. Take a look around you, Dionysos, Hektor, Marduk, Grampal, Logg, Nikiel, Irk and so on and on. This names pop up over and over again for close to (if not more in some cases) 20 years. Even Laurel, who always seems to whine, sticks with Genesis despite all its flaws.

It's more people like that the donut needs. I don't even think we need any more "newbie friendly" content besides what's already here, we should now cater some to this die hard fans. But that's just my personal opinion.

[Amberlee]

You forget something Zhar.
People tend to play in waves of activity.

[Zhar]

Sinusoid or constant doesn't matter. It's still people who either log in for a couple hours or people who log in for a couple of minutes. Of the two I'd rather have the former than the latter populate the game.

[Strider]

Zhar, I believe you hand-waved past amberlee's point that these are not exclusive groups. I'd argue that the short-session player's we're talking about are most likely to be our current, normal- or extended-session players during a down-turn in their availability or commitment, or former regulars who have dropped off. Again, if we can maintain or reestablish their connections to Genesis, it is likely that they will also, or eventually, spend more time with us.

As for the rest of your recent points, I don't know that any of the negative implications you seem to have ascribed to the short-session mechanic actually hold up to scrutiny. Arguably novelty is a point in the idea's favor and as you pointed out, Genesis isn't trying to maximize profits. I also don't see any of the small cadre of die-hard fans you named asking for something from crafting that is contrary to or could not be delivered in this mechanic, or how introducing it would necessarily defeat the acquisition of new die-hard fans. It's not that I am dismissing these arguments; I simply think they need to be more fully articulated and examined.

[Amberlee]

Sinusoid or constant doesn't matter. It's still people who either log in for a couple hours or people who log in for a couple of minutes. Of the two I'd rather have the former than the latter populate the game.

Sure and i agree with that.
But that is completely besides the point.
Even the most active ones play in waves.
One month they clock in 100+ hours
The next its dow to 60ish..
Then down to maybe 4..
And then back on a spike of 100 again.
All depeds on how much time you have to dedicate to the game, how many of your social crowd in the game thats playing.. And not to mention if you are on the reciving end of a proper beatdown.
Like now, evils are on the rise population wise because some others returned, and then more people join up and things et going.(Just look at BDA).
Some others are on a decline since some are too busy to play which in turn means that others play less because the ones they play with are busy.

Its just a fact, and no matter how much you wave your hand at the problem it will still be there.

[Zhar]

I believe you got to the bottom of the problem Amberlee. What could possibly be done to help people stay with the game would be the expansion of the social sphere. Newsletters, maybe some other forms of out-of-game communication/notification and so on.

But I believe we stray too far off topic here now. I'm still waiting for a more fleshed out crafting project as I'm very interested in everything crafting...

[Zhar]

So, let me get on the flame bandwagon (and crafting) and state that (purely in my own opinion), sadly, crafting in Genesis is non-existent and "craft guilds" as they are called are a joke out of the guild type. As long as you can advance in ranks and train skills without actually doing anything even remotely related to the craft guild you're in, this can't work. The idea of changing guild type of the ones that don't offer anything combat-related or other similar utilities to craft type as to free up slots was a sound one, but I think flawed at its core. They're more like a background/hobby guilds. Not crafting.

Neither can it work when "crafting" guilds don't really produce anything of value to other players. Gardeners should be able to gather, grow and dry herbs. Alchemists could then produce quality potions, ointments, unguents and what not from them and other stuff. Smiths should be able to craft superb equipment, perhaps even with magical properties thanks to adding alchemical components to the forging process etc. etc.

Inter-dependency, high quality and desired products, actually having to "craft" to be able to do the good stuff. THIS is what crafting in Genesis needs.

Edit: moved from flames section.

[Kas]

Inter-dependency....a concept that wasn't entirely alien in Genesis if I remember correctly (conseptual stage).

Crafting smiths forging weaponry primed for weapon enchants, provided by crafting enchanters that forged runes/enchants that in turn required crafting/collecting from a third party, not entirely unlike modern mmo counterparts.

Forces people into different roles regarding crafting just like the melee counterpart (tank/healer/cc), creating and stimulating moneysinks/game economies and broader cooperations, which in turn promotes a better game experience.

Perhaps it's worth to do a new evaluation on the concept?