Elven Archers

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Zhar
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 08 Apr 2015 20:25

gorboth wrote:The big problem in my opinion is that Genesis has no implemented method to calculate range. What does this mean? Shooting to the next room? That is wildly inconsistent due to the fact that in some cases a new room might thematically be meant to be two feet away, while in other cases, it might actually mean you just traveled half a mile.

In a single room, there is no current way to deal with increasing or closing distance to a player. There is potential to fool around with this mechanic via sub-locations within a given room. But the combat routines that govern genesis globally don't have much going on with sublocs at present, to my knowledge.

So ... what distinguishes an archer in combat - in Genesis? Shooting an arrow ... like ... two feet right into the face of someone who standing in front of you trying to slice you with their sword? Seems awkward to say the least.

G.
Well, we could always drop the missile weapons altogether (perhaps restrict it to stuff like thrown weapons - knives, axes, javelins and such, but no bow/crossbow). I even have the backup plan for the Archers in case things go bad. In plan B they're not Archers any more but Scouts/Trackers and use close range weaponry instead (breaking SU monopoly on knives among other things, teehee).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Aristos
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Joined: 26 May 2013 18:54

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Aristos » 08 Apr 2015 20:41

Zhar wrote:(breaking SU monopoly on knives among other things, teehee).
Finally!

I've had so many younglings asking how to learn to fight with knives like a rogue, and uhm, the choices were rather limited. That's not bad per se, but limitation and it being an elite guild is quite hard news for people interested in knives.

Sure, there are also thieves, but... Yeah.

Greneth

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Greneth » 08 Apr 2015 21:01

Im just trying to figure out where all this concern for thematics is coming from when players are running around talking about having to go to work, exp and trigger usage, how big of a dump they just took and needing to go walk the dog with some for of a smilie or lol at the end.

* yells: i like this game do u? its 2 much fun xd

And ya'll are worried about how arrows look in the same room?

Chanele
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Posts: 519
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Chanele » 08 Apr 2015 21:24

gorboth wrote:The big problem in my opinion is that Genesis has no implemented method to calculate range. What does this mean? Shooting to the next room? That is wildly inconsistent due to the fact that in some cases a new room might thematically be meant to be two feet away, while in other cases, it might actually mean you just traveled half a mile.

In a single room, there is no current way to deal with increasing or closing distance to a player. There is potential to fool around with this mechanic via sub-locations within a given room. But the combat routines that govern genesis globally don't have much going on with sublocs at present, to my knowledge.

So ... what distinguishes an archer in combat - in Genesis? Shooting an arrow ... like ... two feet right into the face of someone who standing in front of you trying to slice you with their sword? Seems awkward to say the least.

G.
It seems the word "thematically" is used when they fit an oppinion. Do you want a list of awkward things in Genesis?

I agree with Kas, let it function as an ordinary melee attack just with bows. You could even go as far as letting an aimed arrow fire several rooms incase the opponent flees.

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Zhar
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 09 Apr 2015 00:06

Here are some loose ideas I'd like to bounce off of you:

1. Bows working as regular weapons but needing ammo for each hit (arrows). Ammo would be consumed with each attack, without this entire knock/draw/aim/release stuff (all done automatically simply as part of hit description).

2. Elven archers actually being 2 guilds:
a) layman: tracking, sneaking, spells etc. general stuff
b) occupational (requiring layman member to join): actual combat stuff with specials and whatnot.

This would effectively turn the guild into OCC+LAY or LAY only, but would also open many new possibilities (seeing how not that many LAY guilds actually pair well with OCC archers anyway).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Greneth

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Greneth » 09 Apr 2015 00:48

Zhar wrote:Here are some loose ideas I'd like to bounce off of you:

1. Bows working as regular weapons but needing ammo for each hit (arrows). Ammo would be consumed with each attack, without this entire knock/draw/aim/release stuff (all done automatically simply as part of hit description).

2. Elven archers actually being 2 guilds:
a) layman: tracking, sneaking, spells etc. general stuff
b) occupational (requiring layman member to join): actual combat stuff with specials and whatnot.

This would effectively turn the guild into OCC+LAY or LAY only, but would also open many new possibilities (seeing how not that many LAY guilds actually pair well with OCC archers anyway).
I approve, sounds like a great direction for them.

The knocking arrows is quite bugged, least from the messages you receive. Had more to post for you but if you're scrapping it no need for them.

Carnak
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Joined: 13 Sep 2013 16:58

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Carnak » 09 Apr 2015 01:29

Zhar wrote:Here are some loose ideas I'd like to bounce off of you:

1. Bows working as regular weapons but needing ammo for each hit (arrows). Ammo would be consumed with each attack, without this entire knock/draw/aim/release stuff (all done automatically simply as part of hit description).

2. Elven archers actually being 2 guilds:
a) layman: tracking, sneaking, spells etc. general stuff
b) occupational (requiring layman member to join): actual combat stuff with specials and whatnot.

This would effectively turn the guild into OCC+LAY or LAY only, but would also open many new possibilities (seeing how not that many LAY guilds actually pair well with OCC archers anyway).
1. Should take it further and make it impossible to parry missile attacks, and to balance it out, you should'nt be able to parry with a missile weapon wielded.

2. I have already pointed this out in mail, but the best cause of action, in my opinion, is having an independent layman archer guild, allowing the occupational guild to join it, this would increase the use of the layman guild.
a) There are currently no offensive layman options for the Archers OCC or Ranger Bowusers, but aside from those two guilds, the Calians can also use bows along with their swarms, and if they have a special along with it, it might actually be a valid option. I think it would be a mistake to turn this into a stealth layman, not like we dont have those already? both tricksters and thieves are focused on stealth, and we can see how many occupants those guilds have..

b) As for the occupational guild, I think you should take a gander at the NPC setup, and consider allowing them to specialize into one of the three types, Archer, Warrior, Scout. Concerning the amount of layman guilds you can join as an occupational archer, here is a list of what you can be now, that may offer some function, and I must say, they are not few in number.

Thornlin Militia, Dragon Order, Pirates of the Bloodsea, Templars of Takhisis, Necromancers of Vile Darkness, Elemental Worshippers of Calia, Heralds of the Valar, The Minstrels

People seem concerned with what function an archer layman would have in the realm, since so few occupational guilds use it. But what you seem to be missing is that this is infact the beauty of it, it would diversify the game, am I the only one sick and tired of basically every player running around with swords? The reason we want bows in the realm, is not so every player runs around with it, but so that a few who desire to play this specific role, may do so.

Greneth

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Greneth » 09 Apr 2015 03:57

Carnak wrote:
Zhar wrote:Here are some loose ideas I'd like to bounce off of you:

1. Bows working as regular weapons but needing ammo for each hit (arrows). Ammo would be consumed with each attack, without this entire knock/draw/aim/release stuff (all done automatically simply as part of hit description).

2. Elven archers actually being 2 guilds:
a) layman: tracking, sneaking, spells etc. general stuff
b) occupational (requiring layman member to join): actual combat stuff with specials and whatnot.

This would effectively turn the guild into OCC+LAY or LAY only, but would also open many new possibilities (seeing how not that many LAY guilds actually pair well with OCC archers anyway).
1. Should take it further and make it impossible to parry missile attacks, and to balance it out, you should'nt be able to parry with a missile weapon wielded.

2. I have already pointed this out in mail, but the best cause of action, in my opinion, is having an independent layman archer guild, allowing the occupational guild to join it, this would increase the use of the layman guild.
a) There are currently no offensive layman options for the Archers OCC or Ranger Bowusers, but aside from those two guilds, the Calians can also use bows along with their swarms, and if they have a special along with it, it might actually be a valid option. I think it would be a mistake to turn this into a stealth layman, not like we dont have those already? both tricksters and thieves are focused on stealth, and we can see how many occupants those guilds have..

b) As for the occupational guild, I think you should take a gander at the NPC setup, and consider allowing them to specialize into one of the three types, Archer, Warrior, Scout. Concerning the amount of layman guilds you can join as an occupational archer, here is a list of what you can be now, that may offer some function, and I must say, they are not few in number.

Thornlin Militia, Dragon Order, Pirates of the Bloodsea, Templars of Takhisis, Necromancers of Vile Darkness, Elemental Worshippers of Calia, Heralds of the Valar, The Minstrels

People seem concerned with what function an archer layman would have in the realm, since so few occupational guilds use it. But what you seem to be missing is that this is infact the beauty of it, it would diversify the game, am I the only one sick and tired of basically every player running around with swords? The reason we want bows in the realm, is not so every player runs around with it, but so that a few who desire to play this specific role, may do so.
The only Archers that would benefit from joining other layman guilds are the evil versions.

Thieves and Tricksers aren't played because they are stealth guilds, they aren't played because of alignment restrictions and the insane amount of awareness that wizards love throwing at every guild which makes it much harder to steal, not to mention the random items that have been hardcoded to prevent being stolen now. Gardeners especially for the retarded awareness.

Just because you can join a guild doesn't make it viable, sure you could join the Militia just for the watered down version of evade. Or the Heralds for a heal that you cannot be in combat for or any other spell for that matter bar one and yet somehow the only decent guild is a Minstrel that can heal in battle. An Archer should never be a Worshiper, least good aligned. If your "Brother/Sister" is killing Qualinesti elves with their pals and you can't kill them for it... well thats rather odd. The same applies towards the order, also one would have to unequip their bow use the special then wield it once more just to use it? Which gets in the way of the current firing system. If the Sun-Speaker pointed and said kill you kill, none of this "No can do leader thats my Elemental/Dragon kin about it".

Pirates, if you're drunk to the point where you are stumbling yet you can purposely shoot someone in the head... you are a god amongst your peers. As an elf I'm not even sure that the Templars would allow you in for anything other then being a slave maybe as a half-elf or drow. Necromancers are a very good fit though.

Seeing how everyone has been concerned about "Thematics" this is what I came up with. But your list proves my points that no one gives a damn about thematics. I would much rather see the fighting abilities go towards the OCC then be concerned about whether or not we can make bows viable for everyone. It really just depends on whats all going into the Layman, maybe they get a small damage special. But I don't believe they should be the Blademasters version for Missiles and by forcing the OCC+Lay it allows for the guild to focus on needed skills, not a random assortment of ones you'll never use.

Chanele
Titan
Posts: 519
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Chanele » 09 Apr 2015 08:01

We have several layman guilds that offers evasive abilities and several stealthy ones. Why would we have another one? Why would anyone choose the Archer version if you can not use a bow anyhow?

Rangers have very few valid options for layman guilds but an elven Archer guild would solve some of the problems. However, if there will be no offensive power, very few Rangers would join. Carnak also said Calians might be interested for an offensive.

I suggest you either have an offensive layman branch or make a combined guild OCC+Lay and no seperate layman branch. Better to have more freedom into the whole guild than to create a layman that really has no role.

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Zhar
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 09 Apr 2015 09:48

Chanele wrote:We have several layman guilds that offers evasive abilities and several stealthy ones. Why would we have another one? Why would anyone choose the Archer version if you can not use a bow anyhow?

Rangers have very few valid options for layman guilds but an elven Archer guild would solve some of the problems. However, if there will be no offensive power, very few Rangers would join. Carnak also said Calians might be interested for an offensive.

I suggest you either have an offensive layman branch or make a combined guild OCC+Lay and no seperate layman branch. Better to have more freedom into the whole guild than to create a layman that really has no role.
And herein lies the entire problem with the guild...

1. Originally it was intended as a means to give you some core skills and spells to roleplay an elf from Krynn (consider it improved racial guild). I guess it was also meant to be the ultimate guild for bouncers (stealth + nightvision), but that's just my speculation. OCC option was added more as a joke than anything since the difference between OCC and LAY is rather marginal (you get some defence, swords - which is useless at the level you get it - and sup master bows, thats it over the layman option).

2. It seems that nowadays people won't join a guild until it has some direct application in combat.

3. If I make the guild into OCC stealthy archers I'll pretty much copy/paste RoN which goes against DRY principle I adhere to reverently when it comes to coding (but it applies to such things too).

There were more things but I forgot...

Anyway, since very little work has been done on it so far we can discuss it at length and come to conclusions that will be satisfactory for most, if not all, parties involved. Here are some ways we can go about it:

1. Change guild type from ranger to fighter, drop the stealth entirely and focus on combat abilities.

2. Irrelevant of the above, drop the OCC branch altogether and either leave it as a fluffy ranger-type elf abilities for rp'ers or offensive lay for Calians and Rangers.

3. Take a completely different approach. Maybe turn them into elven mages lay guild? Possibilities are many.

Discuss.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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