Elven Archers

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Greneth

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Greneth » 09 Apr 2015 14:41

Its been years since Greneth was a Monk, i didnt think they were peace hippies. But they do dislike undead, forgot about that little tidbit.

Mortis

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Mortis » 09 Apr 2015 17:57

Zhar wrote: Would that make people happy?
Code the guild because it's something you want to do and because you have inspiration and a vision of what you want the guild to be. Then the decisions on what to deliver will fall into place naturally.

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Zhar
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Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 09 Apr 2015 21:22

Mortis wrote:
Zhar wrote: Would that make people happy?
Code the guild because it's something you want to do and because you have inspiration and a vision of what you want the guild to be. Then the decisions on what to deliver will fall into place naturally.
Yeah, but the thing with guild of this kind is that there are just too many ways to implement it. I like several of them so I'm asking for player feedback since, ultimately, they'll be the ones to enjoy it or not, not me. Right now I have some goals set for the guild recode (which I won't disclose here), that fit well into many possible themes so I have a lot of room to maneuver when shaping the guild.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Laurel

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Laurel » 09 Apr 2015 22:14

... or just implement the full guild code that has been created for Archers years ago by a no-more-wizard. It wasn't Novo so who knows - might even end up with a guild that'd pass AoB.

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Zhar
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Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 09 Apr 2015 22:52

Laurel wrote:... or just implement the full guild code that has been created for Archers years ago by a no-more-wizard. It wasn't Novo so who knows - might even end up with a guild that'd pass AoB.
I have looked through both Archer versions. Code in both is sub-par so I'll have to rewrite big chunks of it regardless so I might just as well change some things as I go.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Arman
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Re: Elven Archers

Post by Arman » 11 Apr 2015 12:25

Zhar wrote:
Chanele wrote:We have several layman guilds that offers evasive abilities and several stealthy ones. Why would we have another one? Why would anyone choose the Archer version if you can not use a bow anyhow?

Rangers have very few valid options for layman guilds but an elven Archer guild would solve some of the problems. However, if there will be no offensive power, very few Rangers would join. Carnak also said Calians might be interested for an offensive.

I suggest you either have an offensive layman branch or make a combined guild OCC+Lay and no seperate layman branch. Better to have more freedom into the whole guild than to create a layman that really has no role.
And herein lies the entire problem with the guild...

1. Originally it was intended as a means to give you some core skills and spells to roleplay an elf from Krynn (consider it improved racial guild). I guess it was also meant to be the ultimate guild for bouncers (stealth + nightvision), but that's just my speculation. OCC option was added more as a joke than anything since the difference between OCC and LAY is rather marginal (you get some defence, swords - which is useless at the level you get it - and sup master bows, thats it over the layman option).

2. It seems that nowadays people won't join a guild until it has some direct application in combat.

3. If I make the guild into OCC stealthy archers I'll pretty much copy/paste RoN which goes against DRY principle I adhere to reverently when it comes to coding (but it applies to such things too).

There were more things but I forgot...

Anyway, since very little work has been done on it so far we can discuss it at length and come to conclusions that will be satisfactory for most, if not all, parties involved. Here are some ways we can go about it:

1. Change guild type from ranger to fighter, drop the stealth entirely and focus on combat abilities.

2. Irrelevant of the above, drop the OCC branch altogether and either leave it as a fluffy ranger-type elf abilities for rp'ers or offensive lay for Calians and Rangers.

3. Take a completely different approach. Maybe turn them into elven mages lay guild? Possibilities are many.

Discuss.
Archers were originally coded for the sole purpose of making use of the completely underutilised missile skill. It was around the time when I was looking at layman and craftsmen guilds to supplement the dearth of them in Genesis, when I raised the question to Mercade whether the missile code was actually functional. He showed me the code at the time and I was surprised to find that it actually worked (for a certain value of "worked"), and I thought it would be cool to introduce it as an option.

The main issue was, as with many lay guilds, was if the primary weapon didn't complement the occupational guild then most viewed it as a wasted lay guild. It was the same issue we had with the thieves guild. But really there wasn't much that could be done about that, as there was an order of magnitude difference in pulling together a lay guild compared to pulling together an occupational guild. I wasn't prepared to make it an occ guild, but wanted to expand the sandbox and allow players options. So I rolled it out, added a few spells and stealth skills that some might feel useful, and that was that.

The guild code was very basic. I don't know if it got edited since it was originally coded. But there wasn't much to it. The missile code was another story... but that was something out of my hands.

Anyway, not long ago i had a chat with Gorboth about allowing the mercenaries to use bows. I thought that could allow for a lay archer guild to potentially be quite useful if the mercenary specialised in bows (missiles). He was open to the idea, so maybe something to factor in to your recode Zhar?

AK

Greneth

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Greneth » 11 Apr 2015 13:33

I know everytime I asked the answer was no, Mercenaries wouldn't be coded to allow Archers to mattack. Several have asked. If they were able to most people would just be happy with a nice bow layman.

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Zhar
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 11 Apr 2015 13:59

Arman wrote:
Zhar wrote:
Chanele wrote:We have several layman guilds that offers evasive abilities and several stealthy ones. Why would we have another one? Why would anyone choose the Archer version if you can not use a bow anyhow?

Rangers have very few valid options for layman guilds but an elven Archer guild would solve some of the problems. However, if there will be no offensive power, very few Rangers would join. Carnak also said Calians might be interested for an offensive.

I suggest you either have an offensive layman branch or make a combined guild OCC+Lay and no seperate layman branch. Better to have more freedom into the whole guild than to create a layman that really has no role.
And herein lies the entire problem with the guild...

1. Originally it was intended as a means to give you some core skills and spells to roleplay an elf from Krynn (consider it improved racial guild). I guess it was also meant to be the ultimate guild for bouncers (stealth + nightvision), but that's just my speculation. OCC option was added more as a joke than anything since the difference between OCC and LAY is rather marginal (you get some defence, swords - which is useless at the level you get it - and sup master bows, thats it over the layman option).

2. It seems that nowadays people won't join a guild until it has some direct application in combat.

3. If I make the guild into OCC stealthy archers I'll pretty much copy/paste RoN which goes against DRY principle I adhere to reverently when it comes to coding (but it applies to such things too).

There were more things but I forgot...

Anyway, since very little work has been done on it so far we can discuss it at length and come to conclusions that will be satisfactory for most, if not all, parties involved. Here are some ways we can go about it:

1. Change guild type from ranger to fighter, drop the stealth entirely and focus on combat abilities.

2. Irrelevant of the above, drop the OCC branch altogether and either leave it as a fluffy ranger-type elf abilities for rp'ers or offensive lay for Calians and Rangers.

3. Take a completely different approach. Maybe turn them into elven mages lay guild? Possibilities are many.

Discuss.
Archers were originally coded for the sole purpose of making use of the completely underutilised missile skill. It was around the time when I was looking at layman and craftsmen guilds to supplement the dearth of them in Genesis, when I raised the question to Mercade whether the missile code was actually functional. He showed me the code at the time and I was surprised to find that it actually worked (for a certain value of "worked"), and I thought it would be cool to introduce it as an option.

The main issue was, as with many lay guilds, was if the primary weapon didn't complement the occupational guild then most viewed it as a wasted lay guild. It was the same issue we had with the thieves guild. But really there wasn't much that could be done about that, as there was an order of magnitude difference in pulling together a lay guild compared to pulling together an occupational guild. I wasn't prepared to make it an occ guild, but wanted to expand the sandbox and allow players options. So I rolled it out, added a few spells and stealth skills that some might feel useful, and that was that.

The guild code was very basic. I don't know if it got edited since it was originally coded. But there wasn't much to it. The missile code was another story... but that was something out of my hands.

Anyway, not long ago i had a chat with Gorboth about allowing the mercenaries to use bows. I thought that could allow for a lay archer guild to potentially be quite useful if the mercenary specialised in bows (missiles). He was open to the idea, so maybe something to factor in to your recode Zhar?

AK
I think that in order to make it work we'll have to rework the concept a bit. I'll also have to take a closer look at the entire missiles skill and how bows actually work since it seems a bit buggy. Most of the problems stem from actually calculating stuff based off of bow and the arrows, which makes it more convoluted than regular weapons (not to mention tracking the ammunition and all the other things). If I'll be able to code a decent special for the archers there will be no need for the mercs to get involved, and I'm a strong believer that any guild should pull its own weight and not depend on other guilds to do the work for it.

And speaking of thieves, I think it's high time we turned them into a craft guild...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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gorboth
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Re: Elven Archers

Post by gorboth » 11 Apr 2015 16:32

I'll try to get a way to adapt missile skills in this week for Mercs.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

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Zhar
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Posts: 950
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Elven Archers

Post by Zhar » 11 Apr 2015 16:52

gorboth wrote:I'll try to get a way to adapt missile skills in this week for Mercs.

G.
First we need to fix the missiles :)
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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