Quickness

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sylphan
Great Adventurer
Posts: 193
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: Quickness

Post by sylphan » 13 Apr 2018 23:49

Zugzug wrote:I believe that quickness is not as useful for mages as it is for fighters, as more "casts per minute" = higher mana usage, so if your mana regeneration rate is unaffected you will be running out quicker.
That isn't how I see it, but that's fine. We definitely like haste.

Not to speak for our entire guild, but just for myself, I find it odd that the EW would be so unreachably faster than everyone else, esp. as a layman guild. I guess the drawback is you have to put up with their sh....stuff.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 607
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Quickness

Post by Arman » 14 Apr 2018 02:29

I am not clear from some of the comments on whether people have issues with the power of the quickness spell, or that it only is accessible at this point by one layman guild.

To me that is important to clarify. Will accessibility to such a spell through more layman guilds offering it resolve the perceived game imbalance, or will that essentially result in players only gravitating towards layman guilds with quickness benefits because the spell is perceived as overly beneficial?

Syrk
Rising Hero
Posts: 362
Joined: 06 Jul 2011 22:24

Re: Quickness

Post by Syrk » 14 Apr 2018 03:11

The benefits are available only to some. Those with no access to them suspect/perceive them as overly beneficial.

If there are more guilds with such benefits, first ppl will rush to them to check them out and if they are overly beneficial, they will stay there.

Zugzug
Veteran
Posts: 233
Joined: 20 May 2017 15:25

Re: Quickness

Post by Zugzug » 14 Apr 2018 13:14

Arman wrote:I am not clear from some of the comments on whether people have issues with the power of the quickness spell, or that it only is accessible at this point by one layman guild.

To me that is important to clarify. Will accessibility to such a spell through more layman guilds offering it resolve the perceived game imbalance, or will that essentially result in players only gravitating towards layman guilds with quickness benefits because the spell is perceived as overly beneficial?
You are in charge of balance, so it's really up to you to tell us if quickness is "fair" and "balanced", right? Those of us who know you as an unbiased wizard will believe you. Is quickness really balanced? Does Neidar benefit the same from having a layman guild that speeds up their specials by x% as a knight, or a calian? Or Angmar, who (historically) have been summarily denied access?

If an occupational guild offers quickness, is it balanced when their members join a layman guild that provides more? Or does it somehow "break" balance, resulting in overly skewed outcomes?

Like I wrote above (and like Alisa and anyone affiliated with the layman guild of topic will deny any knowledge of) - does EW guild fall outside of balance by simply offering significantly more caid, as well as uncalculated (?) caid than other layman guilds? I forget who wrote it previously on the forums, but roleplay isn't supposed to be part of balance, right?

I understand the naysayers here, really. It is natural to try and preserve the status quo if everyone else kills at 2x rate because of their occ guild and you kill at 2.5x - it makes people feel "elite".

And no, people don't just want access to quickness. Unburden goes quite nicely with that spell, due to game mechanics that make you much more tired when you move at an accelerated rate. Being able to heal yourself is quite nice too, in fact I had a small myth elementalist tell me before that he can solo-kill anything in genesis because of heals. And his shield spell. Just bring enough gems to a fight and you are set.

The problem is that you have this "overbalanced" layman(!) guild set insanely specific rules, thus, while being neutral on the face of it, being just a club for hand-picked few. No acceptance and teaming with: undeads, necromancers and Syrk. Apparently two of those three break the circle of life and one is just pure evil, you pick which ones are which :)

For the thick-headed people who argue about this and try to compare this with occupational guilds - this is a LAYMAN guild. The only layman guild with much more abilities than any other layman guild.

I will just leave this here from another thread:
cotillion wrote: This together with a flaw in the tax calculation (basically higher combat aid is always better no matter what the tax is) means that it's likely we'll never have a better layman guild.

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Alisa
Hero
Posts: 377
Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: Quickness

Post by Alisa » 14 Apr 2018 14:37

@zugzug Don't blame game balance for your inability to live up to guild rules.

@arman Haste was VERY powerfull.
Haste items and haste stacking got nerfed. Haste was changed... Hell, i haven't bothered checking how well it works lately.
If a guild had a haste spell, that wasnt changed by global nerf on items and imbuements..... OFC it seems more powerfull now.
It's quite the same as when you changed the way weapon dulling worked. This increased "power" on all weapons that wasn't non-dull, and thus the guilds depending on those became better in relation to those that depend on non-dulling.
Does it offer more Caid? How the fuck should i know? How the fuck does Zugzug know, unless he's receiving illegal information about guild workings, that the Admin to my knowledge have said shouldn't be public knowledge.

Zugzugs rantings about what we do is only based in his own imagination. Even if they were true.... If i as a player chose to be a complete asshole and only accept those i like instead of those that live up to rules... It's a player choice. It has nothing to do with balance at all. I can be an evil Cunt all i like without that changing game balance. So he should
stop fucking using that as an argument.

In regards to your original question, ill repeat: A base ruling for all guilds is a mostly good idea. There are flaws, but i think they are outweighed by the bonuses.

Isn't it actually a genesis rule, that you're not allowed to public spread guild secrets? I'd like a complete list of MM spells soon, so i know what to deal with if i get on their bad side again.

EDIT: Annoyance slightly removed.

Zugzug
Veteran
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Re: Quickness

Post by Zugzug » 14 Apr 2018 14:59

Alisa wrote:@zugzug Don't blame game balance for your inability to live up to guild rules.

@arman Haste was VERY powerfull.
Haste items and haste stacking got nerfed. Haste was changed... Hell, i haven't bothered checking how well it works lately.
If a guild had a haste spell, that wasnt changed by global nerf on items and imbuements..... OFC it seems more powerfull now.
It's quite the same as when you changed the way weapon dulling worked. This increased "power" on all weapons that wasn't non-dull, and thus the guilds depending on those became better in relation to those that depend on non-dulling.
Does it offer more Caid? How the fuck should i know? How the fuck does Zugzug know, unless he's receiving illegal information about guild workings, that the Admin to my knowledge have said shouldn't be public knowledge.

Zugzugs rantings about what we do is only based in his own imagination. Even if they were true.... If i as a player chose to be a complete asshole and only accept those i like instead of those that live up to rules... It's a player choice. It has nothing to do with balance at all. I can be an evil Cunt all i like without that changing game balance. So he should
stop fucking using that as an argument.

In regards to your original question, ill repeat: A base ruling for all guilds is a mostly good idea. There are flaws, but i think they are outweighed by the bonuses.


NOW WTF IS AOB TALKING ABOUT GUILD SECRETS ON A PUBLIC FORUM?
Isn't it actually a genesis rule, that you're not allowed to public spread guild secrets? I'd like a complete list of MM spells soon, so i know what to deal with if i get on their bad side again.
@Alisa: do not worry, your use of profanity and calling me all sorts of names will not make me resort to doing the same, getting banned and quitting the game (like what happened to Mallor), I won't give you that satisfaction. Like I said many times before - and what you seem to be unable to understand - make an evil guild with abilities that we are discussing here and you will be up in arms, grabbing your pitchforks trying to burn someone. It works for you, however, when you set the rules and then just smugly say "meh, follow the rules, it's simple!"

Yes, let's delete Zugzug for spreading rumors that cotillion himself has publicly stated before!
Alisa wrote:Zugzugs rantings about what we do is only based in his own imagination. Even if they were true.... If i as a player chose to be a complete asshole and only accept those i like instead of those that live up to rules... It's a player choice. It has nothing to do with balance at all. I can be an evil Cunt all i like without that changing game balance. So he should
stop fucking using that as an argument.
When you have taken a breath, and perhaps without so much use of offensive language and appalling insults to me, could you please explain what you mean here?
Alisa wrote:NOW WTF IS AOB TALKING ABOUT GUILD SECRETS ON A PUBLIC FORUM?
Isn't it actually a genesis rule, that you're not allowed to public spread guild secrets? I'd like a complete list of MM spells soon, so i know what to deal with if i get on their bad side again.
Again, when you have taken a deep breath, you will (perhaps) understand that it is impossible to discuss quickness balance without discussing the EW guild, and it's impossible to discuss EW guild without discussing effects of its spells. I do understand your desire to hide behind the veil of secrecy, but then we cannot have a normal, non-offensive discussion.

Are you simple so upset that your and your friends deathgrip on the best (by far) layman guild in genesis might get weakened or broken? Or are you trying to get me banned from this forum like I got banned from the "quasi-official" genesis discord chat for raising subjects such as this? I would appreciate it if you didn't.

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Alisa
Hero
Posts: 377
Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: Quickness

Post by Alisa » 14 Apr 2018 15:11

Alisa wrote: In regards to your original question, ill repeat: A base ruling for all guilds is a mostly good idea. There are flaws, but i think they are outweighed by the bonuses.

I see this is me frantically trying to hang on to POWER.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1437
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Quickness

Post by Amberlee » 14 Apr 2018 15:37

Well truth is Alisa.
You are known to twist facts into your own version of it.
Also if you don't try to hang on to power, why not step down as EC council? :)
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 585
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Quickness

Post by Kvator » 14 Apr 2018 15:47

I love reading Alisa's mad posts while simultaneously refreshing memory of his irl photo :D

go go!

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 102
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Quickness

Post by Nerull » 14 Apr 2018 16:07

A slight spoiler, Warlocks which is more or less tone testing and undergoing final polish should aid some in the unbalancing issues adressed here. It was afterall created to make game balance / parity, or aid pushing towards it, especially for the remaining evil guilds (and their players) in the game.

I've been on businesstrips the last month and hence not been able to do much about the state of the guild, but I am working on it again and will try to make haste.

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