Quickness

A place for Genesis Wizards to share their latest projects and updates.
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Syrk
Rising Hero
Posts: 356
Joined: 06 Jul 2011 22:24

Re: Quickness

Post by Syrk » 14 Apr 2018 23:22

I agree about the layman power thing but it is quite normal to want for yourself that fresh, juicy and green grass you can see on the other side of the road.

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Arman
Wizard
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Re: Quickness

Post by Arman » 15 Apr 2018 06:00

Greneth wrote:
Arman wrote:I am not clear from some of the comments on whether people have issues with the power of the quickness spell, or that it only is accessible at this point by one layman guild.

To me that is important to clarify. Will accessibility to such a spell through more layman guilds offering it resolve the perceived game imbalance, or will that essentially result in players only gravitating towards layman guilds with quickness benefits because the spell is perceived as overly beneficial?
In my opinion no layman should have it, but I'm a bit biased because I think the game keeps moving guilds towards bigger, better, more. I think things need to be scaled back, we saw how bad it was overall for the game when we increased Titles, then changed stats, then added bigger mobs. Now we've got ridiculously sized people that run scripts all day.

It use to be no one really gave a shit about things like this, when the Hero/Titan MM was farming Mithas Trolls it was more of a joke then people getting seriously angry. Why? Because the game was more focused on roleplay back then. But everytime we keep adding more more more, bigger, more more more. And everytime it shifts the attitudes just a tiny bit more towards this min/max crap. If that's the direction you want to take the game then remove all quests and just let people grind/bot to their hearts content. Set every guild/skill to the same damage and same resistances then just change the descriptions of the attacks that the players see.

Haste is a very powerful tool that should be reserved for Occupational Guilds, Special Items and Imbuements. Should you add more guilds with haste the players will just move to those guilds, depending on how easy they are to join. And should those guilds not measure up to EW standards you will most definitely hear about it from certain players. Get rid of the haste in laymans now while you still have the option and save yourself a headache.
If layman guilds can have x amount of combat aid, does it matter how they get it? Whether it is stat boost, quickness, direct damage, poison/bleeds damage, evades, or heals? x combat aid is x combat aid?

It isn't a rhetorical question by the way... its one we in the admin have wrestled with since we started applying caid limits. And we do get it isn't as simple as that.

We can determine caid through formulas that are largely in isolation of other game factors. So for example, a stat boost to discipline should/could/does(doesn't?) have minimal combat aid applied to it... because in isolation it has very little influence in combat effectiveness. Unless, you have another guild that has a special whose effectiveness is strongly weighted towards the players dis... which in that case means that dis-boosting ability will provide considerable aid. How do we account for that? Likewise with physical and mental stats. To a spellcaster, strength is largely useless... most of the time they don't do white damage and none of their abilities depend on it. While for a warrior it is a primary stat that plays a big part in their damage output. Similiar scenario for int and wis. How do you account caid benefit based on these different scenarios?

Quickness is another one where, in isolation, the formula for aid vs quickness benefit is pretty clear... but not so much when you look at guild permutations and mortal meta :). That is why I am asking these questions, and I would appreciate feedback on how much quickness makes a difference. Our formulas aren't perfect, but one thing we aim to provide is consistency through standardised code... and if an ability/formula ends up being a bit out of whack we can make changes to it globally rather than in isolated guilds cases - which comes across as picking on a specific guild.

I'd like to also flag that some abilities the admin have decided to keep away from layman guilds, such as rescue/move behind abilities. I am not sure quickness abilities needs to be considered in the same boat... I am not convinced the issue isn't something else, that we have necessarily got to the bottom of the underlying cause of the symptom people are seeing. I am thinking it might be something else... however changing that will be a real PITA.

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Arman
Wizard
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Re: Quickness

Post by Arman » 15 Apr 2018 06:20

Alisa wrote: NOW WTF IS AOB TALKING ABOUT GUILD SECRETS ON A PUBLIC FORUM?
Isn't it actually a genesis rule, that you're not allowed to public spread guild secrets? I'd like a complete list of MM spells soon, so i know what to deal with if i get on their bad side again.
Balancing stuff can be easy to do. You just remove features from the game that are difficult to balance, or just make changes to align with a logical and simple set of principles that makes sense from someone who administers the game but doesn't play it.

I have never seen that approach result in anything other than a massive player outcry.

I can make changes to quickness - or layman magic guilds or the magic system generally - based on what I think. But if I do make such changes, I want to make sure they make sense to the player base... which means talking through possible issues with them first. I'll avoid giving away guild secrets, and I don't think I have... I am pretty sure EW abilities have been commented on publicly elsewhere in the forums, however if you feel I have let me know and i'll try and reword in a more general fashion.

Draugor
Myth
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Re: Quickness

Post by Draugor » 15 Apr 2018 11:09

Arman wrote:
Alisa wrote: NOW WTF IS AOB TALKING ABOUT GUILD SECRETS ON A PUBLIC FORUM?
Isn't it actually a genesis rule, that you're not allowed to public spread guild secrets? I'd like a complete list of MM spells soon, so i know what to deal with if i get on their bad side again.
Balancing stuff can be easy to do. You just remove features from the game that are difficult to balance, or just make changes to align with a logical and simple set of principles that makes sense from someone who administers the game but doesn't play it.

I have never seen that approach result in anything other than a massive player outcry.

I can make changes to quickness - or layman magic guilds or the magic system generally - based on what I think. But if I do make such changes, I want to make sure they make sense to the player base... which means talking through possible issues with them first. I'll avoid giving away guild secrets, and I don't think I have... I am pretty sure EW abilities have been commented on publicly elsewhere in the forums, however if you feel I have let me know and i'll try and reword in a more general fashion.

The issue is partly the lack of availability and the amount of speed that a layman spell gives compared to every speed item in the game outside of imbues :P Please go test this, fur robe, GG's etc compared to 1 spell. A layman spell. And the fact that there has been no equal boost for people that didnt want to suck up to people and that might have had connections to undeadguilds. The lack of actual balance as such is rather big tbh.

Amberlee
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Re: Quickness

Post by Amberlee » 15 Apr 2018 14:05

About quickness and haste spells.
As I see it, if one layman guild has it then everyone should have equal chance to be a part of it.
By having the guild open to join for all alignments OR having several guilds with it.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Quickness

Post by Arman » 15 Apr 2018 14:15

Draugor wrote:
Arman wrote:
Alisa wrote: NOW WTF IS AOB TALKING ABOUT GUILD SECRETS ON A PUBLIC FORUM?
Isn't it actually a genesis rule, that you're not allowed to public spread guild secrets? I'd like a complete list of MM spells soon, so i know what to deal with if i get on their bad side again.
Balancing stuff can be easy to do. You just remove features from the game that are difficult to balance, or just make changes to align with a logical and simple set of principles that makes sense from someone who administers the game but doesn't play it.

I have never seen that approach result in anything other than a massive player outcry.

I can make changes to quickness - or layman magic guilds or the magic system generally - based on what I think. But if I do make such changes, I want to make sure they make sense to the player base... which means talking through possible issues with them first. I'll avoid giving away guild secrets, and I don't think I have... I am pretty sure EW abilities have been commented on publicly elsewhere in the forums, however if you feel I have let me know and i'll try and reword in a more general fashion.

The issue is partly the lack of availability and the amount of speed that a layman spell gives compared to every speed item in the game outside of imbues :P Please go test this, fur robe, GG's etc compared to 1 spell. A layman spell. And the fact that there has been no equal boost for people that didnt want to suck up to people and that might have had connections to undeadguilds. The lack of actual balance as such is rather big tbh.
I have checked those items :). And I get why quickness is restricted for items... how much free untaxed combat aid should items give? (another murky balance question).

Quickness abilities are becoming more accessible. With availability, one aspect of balance gets resolved. I guess at that point we'll have a better idea of whether it provides too much of a benefit for a layman guild.

I do get your concerns... I've asked the same questions. I haven't got a satisfactory answer, however myself and the balance team are working at unpicking the mechanics behind it all. At some point we'll feel confident around whether the formulas currently in place make sense.

*Here comes Toto pulling back the curtains revealing the great and powerful Wizard of Oz* The mystery of how things work in Genesis is difficult even for the admin to get a grip on sometimes. Unfortunately for some things there is no manual about 'how things work'. When I became AoB I was hoping there was such a document of great enlightenment, but there isn't. So what that means is a lot of interrogation of the code, and interrogation of those involved in making the code when they make an appearance in the realm... and trying to make sense of it all.

Often the act of 'balancing' something has been just making sure it is consistent with how it has been done in the past. The code is old, and has been around for many generations of admin... so bare with us. Often what seems as inaction is often the current generation of admin trying to reverse engineer how things work.

Chanele
Titan
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Quickness

Post by Chanele » 15 Apr 2018 16:15

Alot of envy in this thread..

Keep in mind that a handful of loudmouths does not speak for the whole community.

I understand that balance is hard but to get somewhat closed you need to add all parameters. Speed being one of them but there are more, race restrictions (DA vs Knights ex.), item restrictions etc. The previous AoB (P) did not include these factors and explained he compared guilds by putting two equal sized players against eachother for x number of times....

Thats not balance.

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Kas
Legend
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Re: Quickness

Post by Kas » 15 Apr 2018 17:46

Chanele wrote:Alot of envy in this thread..

Keep in mind that a handful of loudmouths does not speak for the whole community.

I understand that balance is hard but to get somewhat closed you need to add all parameters. Speed being one of them but there are more, race restrictions (DA vs Knights ex.), item restrictions etc. The previous AoB (P) did not include these factors and explained he compared guilds by putting two equal sized players against eachother for x number of times....

Thats not balance.
If you place two equal sized opponents vs eachother for testing guild balance, that will help you to measure and calibrate/balance the guilds. This is symmetrical balancing if both guilds are set up to be of equal power, so yes, I would say it's an act of balance.

Size, racial modifiers, game itemization shouldn't be a part of any guild balancing because they may change/drift over time, and may be easier to balance on their own (excluding size, which is about player effort/investment).
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Alisa
Rising Hero
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: Quickness

Post by Alisa » 15 Apr 2018 19:45

Arman wrote: Quickness abilities are becoming more accessible. With availability, one aspect of balance gets resolved. I guess at that point we'll have a better idea of whether it provides too much of a benefit for a layman guild.

I do get your concerns... I've asked the same questions. I haven't got a satisfactory answer, however myself and the balance team are working at unpicking the mechanics behind it all. At some point we'll feel confident around whether the formulas currently in place make sense.

*Here comes Toto pulling back the curtains revealing the great and powerful Wizard of Oz* The mystery of how things work in Genesis is difficult even for the admin to get a grip on sometimes. Unfortunately for some things there is no manual about 'how things work'. When I became AoB I was hoping there was such a document of great enlightenment, but there isn't. So what that means is a lot of interrogation of the code, and interrogation of those involved in making the code when they make an appearance in the realm... and trying to make sense of it all.

Often the act of 'balancing' something has been just making sure it is consistent with how it has been done in the past. The code is old, and has been around for many generations of admin... so bare with us. Often what seems as inaction is often the current generation of admin trying to reverse engineer how things work.
I did assume that AoB knew the mechanics. Your questions make a lot more sense to me, knowing that there are uncertainties.
As far as player testing, seeing the power of a certain mechanic.. We are quite struck by the randomizer.
For instance, i have been testing haste effects.
A level 1 haste, gave me a 18% reduction on a certain ability, tested 203 times.
A level 2 haste, gave me a 14% reduction on the same ability, tested 213 times.
Since i dont know the variation, i don't know how large a sample size i need before i get some valid data.

So how powerful is it?

Makfly
Champion
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Quickness

Post by Makfly » 16 Apr 2018 07:20

Amberlee wrote:About quickness and haste spells.
As I see it, if one layman guild has it then everyone should have equal chance to be a part of it.
By having the guild open to join for all alignments OR having several guilds with it.
Remember when you, me (DA), Ruben (DA) and Guinevere (DO) were the council of EW?
The only difference between then and now is the (player-added) 'don't hang out with or aid undead/necromancers' rule.
There are no race or alignment restrictions. Even Thanar and Red-fang can join these days.

Amberlee wrote:I have nothing against you personally.
[...]Staying for years without end in a guild may be good or it may be bad.
One thing's for sure.
When the leadership remains the same for over a decade, almost without any changes, it's a bad thing.
I can only agree with you on that, but why bring it up here?
I don't recall seeing you complain about Logg, Diri, Etanukar or others?
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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